View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:34 pm




Reply to topic  [ 113 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Team Yankee - Updates from Historicon 2017 
Author Message
Technical Sergeant

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:23 am
Posts: 847
Likely the reverse, with offboard options being removed.


Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:03 pm
Profile
Private First Class
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:54 pm
Posts: 58
Location: NoVa, USA
webgriffin wrote:
LtColMorto wrote:
We never complained about how the scale for FoW was way off for WW2, I don't get the 15mm push back for TY.
Mitch


First, we all know Northwestern is waaaaayyy better than Penn / Wharton... ; - )

Now that I threw that grenade, I am just going to discuss this part of the post. A person's opinion about how a scale plays is totally their own and I do not believe up for debate. It is what it is.

But the whole push back on 15mm in TY and not in FoW is rather simple to me. Here we go:

In FoW, I can have a tank that is the size of a Luchs / Panzer I / Stuart / Cruiser / etc. These are super small and zippy. Then I can have a Sherman / Panzer IV / T-34. Then I can have a King Tiger or IS2.

In TY, I have King Tigers. Lots of them. And that is the issue for me. The difference in the units (BMP, T-72 / 64 / 55) is miniscule. While in FoW, it is large. I can't explain it any differently and maybe it is just me. But that is the core.


And yes, there are other considerations around ranges and the fact my main gun can only shoot 6 or 8 lengths of my hull, etc... And in FoW, you don't have flying railcars called Hinds too! Take all that into account and I have no issue with 15mm WW2, but I have an issue with 15mm 1980s combat.


Oh Al... I wish we had more time to talk at H-Con... I do love your comments...

Yes its my opinion.... FoW/TY is a game, not a combat sim... It is meant to be bloody and made to be fun. The mechanics give the game certain qualities and usually they are focused a particular scale.
Playing at a smaller scale since players feel that it is more realistic is a fallacy, even at that scale the ranges are no where near realistic. If you want somewhat realistic, play at 6mm or 3mm on four 4' x 6' tables. I have found at a smaller scale it becomes a game of hide and seek and takes forever to play. The game also loses the lethality that is woven into the game mechanics. The game uses maneuver, however that is measured in inches, and in a smaller scale it becomes about feet which makes it play as a different game.

The example you use did confuse me, did you mean in FoW you have small speedy tanks and big deadly tanks? Welcome to modern warfare, things are close to the same size, heck the Luchs is huge, and I almost crashed into one in Germany racing to a NATO exercise meeting. The combat difference in units is also similar in modern war, things need to be able to kill other things, and if they do not they do not see the battlefield. It does suck that a two man missile team can kill a TY "king tiger" but that is what happens in real life.

I also think we compare TY to FoW a lot more than it deserves and within that we forget why we play these games (for fun).

I sent you a link to a great 6mm modern warfare game. Tell me what you think of it.
Mitch


Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:29 am
Profile
Technical Sergeant

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:23 am
Posts: 847
Of course all the scales are crazy off, but that misses the point. Once you are used to FoW, which feels a little off already, moving to bigger tanks with faster speeds and longer ranges FEELS even smaller and just wrong. I do know a guy who played true 6mm in ROTC using a gym floor and periscopes though.

Anyone know why the Luchs is so darn big btw? I don't get it.


Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:47 am
Profile
First Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:42 pm
Posts: 2265
Location: Oak Hill, VA
LtColMorto wrote:
webgriffin wrote:
LtColMorto wrote:
We never complained about how the scale for FoW was way off for WW2, I don't get the 15mm push back for TY.
Mitch


First, we all know Northwestern is waaaaayyy better than Penn / Wharton... ; - )

Now that I threw that grenade, I am just going to discuss this part of the post. A person's opinion about how a scale plays is totally their own and I do not believe up for debate. It is what it is.

But the whole push back on 15mm in TY and not in FoW is rather simple to me. Here we go:

In FoW, I can have a tank that is the size of a Luchs / Panzer I / Stuart / Cruiser / etc. These are super small and zippy. Then I can have a Sherman / Panzer IV / T-34. Then I can have a King Tiger or IS2.

In TY, I have King Tigers. Lots of them. And that is the issue for me. The difference in the units (BMP, T-72 / 64 / 55) is miniscule. While in FoW, it is large. I can't explain it any differently and maybe it is just me. But that is the core.


And yes, there are other considerations around ranges and the fact my main gun can only shoot 6 or 8 lengths of my hull, etc... And in FoW, you don't have flying railcars called Hinds too! Take all that into account and I have no issue with 15mm WW2, but I have an issue with 15mm 1980s combat.


Oh Al... I wish we had more time to talk at H-Con... I do love your comments...

Yes its my opinion.... FoW/TY is a game, not a combat sim... It is meant to be bloody and made to be fun. The mechanics give the game certain qualities and usually they are focused a particular scale.
Playing at a smaller scale since players feel that it is more realistic is a fallacy, even at that scale the ranges are no where near realistic. If you want somewhat realistic, play at 6mm or 3mm on four 4' x 6' tables. I have found at a smaller scale it becomes a game of hide and seek and takes forever to play. The game also loses the lethality that is woven into the game mechanics. The game uses maneuver, however that is measured in inches, and in a smaller scale it becomes about feet which makes it play as a different game.

The example you use did confuse me, did you mean in FoW you have small speedy tanks and big deadly tanks? Welcome to modern warfare, things are close to the same size, heck the Luchs is huge, and I almost crashed into one in Germany racing to a NATO exercise meeting. The combat difference in units is also similar in modern war, things need to be able to kill other things, and if they do not they do not see the battlefield. It does suck that a two man missile team can kill a TY "king tiger" but that is what happens in real life.

I also think we compare TY to FoW a lot more than it deserves and within that we forget why we play these games (for fun).

I sent you a link to a great 6mm modern warfare game. Tell me what you think of it.
Mitch


I know it's a game. But it is not a fallacy to think having room to maneuver makes for a better game. The 15mm tables look like line-them-up and shoot-em-up silliness. Still I would rather play TY in 10mm. It's a good compromise scale.


Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:12 am
Profile
Private First Class

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:47 am
Posts: 55
Location: Stafford, VA
UndergroundWarren wrote:


Anyone know why the Luchs is so darn big btw? I don't get it.


It has two drivers. One forward, one rearward.


Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:14 pm
Profile
First Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Madison, WI
Mitch -

I must not have adequately explained my thoughts. No, I don't want a sim. I want a game. But your question was why don't we have the same issue in FoW. My point has to do with small tanks and big tanks. Not lethality. Because of the variation, it feels different. TY not so much. Big tanks with long ranges - as they should. BMps and Marders with long ranges - as they should. But the visual of 11 T-72, 12 BMPs, Shilkas, Hinds and maybe some arty just makes the table feel crowded in a way that was not common in FoW.

And when I was testing AIW, I had the same issue with 60+ UAR tanks.

_________________
Follow me at:
http://fowarmymen.blogspot.com


Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:36 pm
Profile WWW
Technical Sergeant

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:23 am
Posts: 847
The second driver is one guy. The thing should carry a full squad in the back at that size. Or, it could have a bigger gun, missile launcher, and ammo. There are mortar carriers smaller than that. I'm seriously curious.


Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:36 pm
Profile
Private First Class

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:47 am
Posts: 55
Location: Stafford, VA
UndergroundWarren wrote:
The second driver is one guy. The thing should carry a full squad in the back at that size. Or, it could have a bigger gun, missile launcher, and ammo. There are mortar carriers smaller than that. I'm seriously curious.


A full drivers compartment. Engine compartment, turret basket, second drivers compartment. How big is the transmission? The rest of the drive train? All of the wheels are steerable. That will take up space. There may be room for one or two guys and or equipment but, that is it. I've seen one driving by but have not been in one. They are very quiet.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:09 am
Profile
Technical Sergeant

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:23 am
Posts: 847
Okay, I can see how the steerable rear wheels could take up a lot of space. Does the BTR not have that feature?

Also, weight and space wise, there is still space for more gun.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 am
Profile
Captain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 4181
Location: Fortress Knox
It would seem to me that the Soviets would play better in a smaller scale, something they might need. Especially only heavy terrain board, the Soviets in 15mm end up blocking their own LOS quite a bit. This really cuts down on the lethality that the Soviets are suppose to get from "massing" which is about the only thing they have going for them.

I like the 15mm TY models, and I'll happily play them at TY events. But the ergonomics of cramming a 15mm Soviet force on the board with so many big hulled tanks and giant helicopters does negatively impact the Soviet game play for me. It just does.

I wish BF had went with 10mm from the start for TY. But I'm "in" now with one completed 15mm TY force and another 10mm TY force ready to get started on. If PSC does a good job on 10mm moderns tanks AND infantry then I think my 3rd TY force will be in that scale as long as there are also enough local folks going in to 10mm.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:51 pm
Profile WWW
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 257
Location: West Los Angeles, California
Iron-Tom wrote:
...
I wish BF had went with 10mm from the start for TY. But I'm "in" now with one completed 15mm TY force and another 10mm TY force ready to get started on. If PSC does a good job on 10mm moderns tanks AND infantry then I think my 3rd TY force will be in that scale as long as there are also enough local folks going in to 10mm.


And, the cool thing about being "in" with a game system, is that there's another system on the horizon.

PSC is close to releasing their NORTHAG book from IronFist, and a bunch of 10mm scale models to go with the book.

Problem solved.

And, you know that the game systems and models can cross pollinate as need arise.

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:11 pm
Profile
Private First Class

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:47 am
Posts: 55
Location: Stafford, VA
Just the front two axles are steerable on a BTR. I agree that it could take more gun, but the 20mm could carry more ammo. That ammo was in great supply for the Marder, AA guns and the vehicle that was replaced by the Luchs, the SPz 11-2. It could deal with anything short of a tank.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:23 pm
Profile
Technical Sergeant

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:23 am
Posts: 847
In reality, the 20mm might be enough, but in TY the bigger guns are a better deal. They shoulda seen it coming, lol.

I'd love to hear if the complexity was worth it because I doubt it was. There's a reason the Dingo was popular for so long.

I suppose drones will win, but I've seen some electric motor bikes that are coming out which would make awesome scout vehicles.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:17 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 113 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

37,728,801 Views Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF.
Karma functions powered by Karma MOD © 2007, 2009 m157y