View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:42 am




Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
BG Rulebook as PDF on PSC site 
Author Message
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 259
Location: West Los Angeles, California
I just purchased the BattleGroup rules in PDF form from the PSC Website:

http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=1121

I ordered yesterday. Since I'm on the west coast of the USA, and my time zone is far different than PSC's time zone in GB - I've got both the Pond and the continent of NA between us - it took a day for my order to process. But, I expected that. I had an email with the PDF zip file in my email box this morning.

Not bad for 5 quid.

Some of the other campaign sourcebooks are available in pdf as well.

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:56 pm
Profile
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 259
Location: West Los Angeles, California
As I give it a read, I'll add interesting tidbits or differences from FOW

First up: RANGES and Measuring

NO Pre-measuring distances. As they say in the book, the grunts on the ground have to guess, so should you.

Second, Measure from the tank hull, not the gun or piece of stowage.

For infantry being long or short range - Majority Matters. Count the unit as an entity and how much of it (%-wise) is in long or short determines the outcome.

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:55 pm
Profile
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 259
Location: West Los Angeles, California
Unlike the new movement orders in FoW, the orders in BG are how things get done. They're not an add-on to tactical movement or shooting.

Some orders are immediate activation, some are assigned and held for later - can be used in opponent's turn

The number of orders issued is randomly rolled per side +1 per officer on the table for that side.

Interesting bit: Guns are not assaulted by tanks, they are over-run. Have to see how that plays out.

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:23 pm
Profile
First Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:42 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Oak Hill, VA
Troy wrote:
Unlike the new movement orders in FoW, the orders in BG are how things get done. They're not an add-on to tactical movement or shooting.

Some orders are immediate activation, some are assigned and held for later - can be used in opponent's turn

The number of orders issued is randomly rolled per side +1 per officer on the table for that side.

Interesting bit: Guns are not assaulted by tanks, they are over-run. Have to see how that plays out.



I like the orders - it allows for some command friction. For example, we are doing a home-made scenario tomorrow and the US has 24 units with 2d6+6 and the Germans have 22 units with 2d6+4...so not everything will get an order every turn.

Oh, I recommend using a marker for units that move as in your opponent's turn you would get a -1 to hit for aimed fire. We drop some grey smoke in front of guys that shoot as well, since they are easier to spot.


Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:25 pm
Profile
First Sergeant

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:04 pm
Posts: 2215
Location: NoVa
Quote:
NO Pre-measuring distances. As they say in the book, the grunts on the ground have to guess, so should you.
That is a huge black mark in my book. In particular the quote, "grunts on the ground have to guess..." is utter bullshit. The grunt on the ground calibrated their eyes every day and could very accurately "guess" range. Laser rangefinders rarely corrected those guesses. A gamer on the table is not going to be as precise in estimating. And what happens when a person is a 1/8 inch short? There are better things to discuss than ruler measurements.


Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:53 pm
Profile
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 259
Location: West Los Angeles, California
Shooting bits:

Ranges... a lot longer than FoW

Rifles: 30 in
HMGs: 40 in
Tank Guns: 50 in to name a few

Two types of firing:
Area Fire: good for pinning
Aimed Fire: good for taking out targets

Fire Arcs:
Infantry: 360
Guns: 90
Turrets: 360

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:18 pm
Profile
First Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:42 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Oak Hill, VA
SECfootball wrote:
Quote:
NO Pre-measuring distances. As they say in the book, the grunts on the ground have to guess, so should you.
That is a huge black mark in my book. In particular the quote, "grunts on the ground have to guess..." is utter bullshit. The grunt on the ground calibrated their eyes every day and could very accurately "guess" range. Laser rangefinders rarely corrected those guesses. A gamer on the table is not going to be as precise in estimating. And what happens when a person is a 1/8 inch short? There are better things to discuss than ruler measurements.


Not that it matters much, as you and your opponent could both agree to allow measuring, but: 1) you probably have played enough games in 15mm that your eyeballs are pretty able to guess table range; and 2) having done it now, it speeds play.


Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:07 pm
Profile
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 259
Location: West Los Angeles, California
More on Shooting:

This is going to be a major change for FoW players. I'm going through it real slow, and may have to get models and dice out to work through it a few times.

I predict this is where veteran FoW players will say "too complicated" and walk away. But it looks easy enough, just a different mindset and charts to work off of.

Area fire is fairly simple: roll to see if you "hit" or cover the area well enough - if you are successful, then opponent makes cover save to avoid pin.

Aimed Fire gets a bit more complicated. Unit leader has to identify targets - so there is a spotting roll. If that succeeds, then there is a fire roll based on weapon type and ROF (1 d6 per ROF point).

To Hit # is modified based on range and type of weapon firing. 20 to 30 inches away need a 5+ for small arms.

Cover Save (same as for Area Fire) is modified based on type of unit (inf or tank etc) and type of cover: Open, concealed soft, hard, etc)

Unlike FoW, there is no firepower test for dug-in or bulletproof entrenchments.

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:47 pm
Profile
First Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:42 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Oak Hill, VA
Troy wrote:
More on Shooting:

This is going to be a major change for FoW players. I'm going through it real slow, and may have to get models and dice out to work through it a few times.

I predict this is where veteran FoW players will say "too complicated" and walk away. But it looks easy enough, just a different mindset and charts to work off of.

Area fire is fairly simple: roll to see if you "hit" or cover the area well enough - if you are successful, then opponent makes cover save to avoid pin.

Aimed Fire gets a bit more complicated. Unit leader has to identify targets - so there is a spotting roll. If that succeeds, then there is a fire roll based on weapon type and ROF (1 d6 per ROF point).

To Hit # is modified based on range and type of weapon firing. 20 to 30 inches away need a 5+ for small arms.

Cover Save (same as for Area Fire) is modified based on type of unit (inf or tank etc) and type of cover: Open, concealed soft, hard, etc)

Unlike FoW, there is no firepower test for dug-in or bulletproof entrenchments.



Dug-in troops have a higher save. Entrenchments are also purchased. Shorter time-frame from FoW. Also, you can give your troops an open fire order, which allows you to shoot twice. Or you can move and shoot or shoot and move.

So, shooting at an enemy squad in foxholes that fired last turn @20" -
3+ to spot
4+ to hit with each shot (so an MG42 bi-pod team would roll 6 dice)
3+ save for reinforced cover (foxholes/entrenchments)

It's also at a lower scale (squad shooting at squad) with individual casualties. Once you go through it a few times, it gets pretty easy. It's one extra roll really (the spotting) unless you needed to do a FP test, in which case, it's the same number of dice attempts (spot, hit, save vs. hit, save, fp). Our first game involved quite a few referrals back to the rulebook, but the second one we pretty much worked off the QRS sheet (in the back of the book or on the FB page of BattleGroup).


Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:56 pm
Profile
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 259
Location: West Los Angeles, California
Just read through the artillery rules...

Arty adds nothing to your force's battle rating (how many points you accrue before your force breaks) but still cost you build points.

Most of the arty is off table, and called in by a spotter. It's more involved to get a bombardment than in FoW, but you also have the choice of firing for suppression or to kill.

there is a drift factor to the target point. (Do I have any old Warhammer Scatter Dice around? hmmmm) - if it drifts too far the wrong way, the spotter can (usually) call it off... usually...

Friendly units can take hits too if they're close enough.

The designers justify most of this as: Arty is fairly devastating, and when rounds rain down, everyone hides. You can load up on big guns - but, they don't add to your battle rating, so your force will break sooner. It's a gamble.

Comparing this style to what Ver 4 has become for Arty decimating infantry and guns (stay under the template and soak up another round of fire, or move that heavy gun out from under the template, don't fire it while moving, and lose the foxhole....) -- I'm intrigued by the BattleGroup method and want to see how it plays out.

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:15 am
Profile
Sergeant

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:44 pm
Posts: 375
On table guns do add to your BR.


Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:20 pm
Profile
Captain

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:35 pm
Posts: 2093
Location: Sterling VA
We allow premeasuring with our group. I actually didn't even know you couldn't until just now...guess I missed that section!

I've never brought on-table guns....always done offboard. What are some advantages on on-table, other than adding BR?

_________________
http://ittybittysoldiers.blogspot.com/
www.novaopen.com


Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:00 pm
Profile
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 259
Location: West Los Angeles, California
piperider361 wrote:
We allow premeasuring with our group. I actually didn't even know you couldn't until just now...guess I missed that section!

I've never brought on-table guns....always done offboard. What are some advantages on on-table, other than adding BR?


On table 25 pdr or 10.5 would be their direct fire anti-tank capabilities. Not sure about rockets etc.

After watching some of the vids, it sounds as though MORALE plays a huge role in this game. Unpin a unit, take a chit. So Area Fire to pin a unit can be devastating even though no casualties result.

Need to check, is there a way to unpin (eg wait a turn) to not draw a chit?

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:38 pm
Profile
First Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:42 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Oak Hill, VA
Troy wrote:
piperider361 wrote:
We allow premeasuring with our group. I actually didn't even know you couldn't until just now...guess I missed that section!

I've never brought on-table guns....always done offboard. What are some advantages on on-table, other than adding BR?


On table 25 pdr or 10.5 would be their direct fire anti-tank capabilities. Not sure about rockets etc.

After watching some of the vids, it sounds as though MORALE plays a huge role in this game. Unpin a unit, take a chit. So Area Fire to pin a unit can be devastating even though no casualties result.

Need to check, is there a way to unpin (eg wait a turn) to not draw a chit?


Unpinning -

1 - take a chit at the end of your turn - unpin d6 units for each chit you pull (p48)
2 - issue the Senior leader order (Tactical co-ordination, p16) take a chit, pass an experience test (p15)
3 - Roll a 6 when you are taking a morale test - Beyond the Call of Duty test occurs. If you pass the BtCoD test (p47), the unit is automatically unpinned and you can immediately issue the unit an order.

The experience test and BtCoD tables are the same and both on the QRF sheet.


Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:14 pm
Profile
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:34 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Quote:
Need to check, is there a way to unpin (eg wait a turn) to not draw a chit?


Only one really: with a Senior Officer using the "Tactical Co-ordination" rule. You have to draw a BR chit for this and the attempt costs an order for the Senior Officer who can do nothing else. Then pass an experience test with the unit you are attempting to un-pin and, if successful, they can then be issued an order. So, there is still a cost, but is does allow you to "force un-pin" out of sequence which can be very useful at critical moments.

We limit the Tactical Co-ordination to a unit within 10" of the Senior Officer, though the rules have no such restriction. It just makes more sense to us (personal officer intervention) rather than somehow un-pinning a unit 4' away.

Quote:
That is a huge black mark in my book. In particular the quote, "grunts on the ground have to guess..." is utter bullshit. The grunt on the ground calibrated their eyes every day and could very accurately "guess" range. Laser rangefinders rarely corrected those guesses. A gamer on the table is not going to be as precise in estimating. And what happens when a person is a 1/8 inch short? There are better things to discuss than ruler measurements.


You can play it how you like: at first I did not like the restriction, but played it as-is as I prefer to play rules unchanged to get a feel for what the author intends. Over a few games I came to like the "no pre-measurement" as it adds a fog of war element and, in my opinion, is adds a net positive overall to game play. For example:

I have a Panzer IV H: I know I can move down a road, past a building and fire at three potential Sherman targets: the closest is a regular Sherman 75mm, the next a Sherman 75mm (Officer) and furthest away a Sherman Firefly. I "know" they're there because I'm 100ft tall and a veritable deity looking down on my toy soldiers. Wise and handsome too. Realistically, my Panzer IV crew hardly knows anything: they will round that corner and....shoot the first target they can see. Which do *I* choose for them to target? Pre-measuring allows me to "know" exactly what the ranges are and consequently the numbers I will require to hit: IMO that is, in your words, "bullshit".

For if I know that the Sherman75 and Sherman75 Officer are the same range, I might as well try to snipe the officer. Even though I'd have no idea really that that was the platoon leader: it's gamey. If I have no pre-measuring however I will generally do what a real Panzer IV crew would do: shoot the closest or easiest target. If I cannot pre-measure, suppose the Officer tank looks like it might be a bit further back. This happens all the time in my games: I have two targets, I want the further one dead ideally, but if it is slightly further back I might need an extra +1 for the range, making the chances of scoring a hit less likely. I might get nothing, which in the example cited would be very bad for my tank. The no pre-measuring encourages (but does not force) me to take the sensible shot, as a real crew would.

If you don't like the rule and both players can pre-measure, then it's hardly a problem. But in my experience so far no pre-measuring is a positive thing as it encourages players to play sensibly, but does not force them to do so. We do allow pre-measuring for a few things like measuring 10" for Infantry Close Assault, just not in general.

CdlT

_________________
My painting-blog-thing: Crac des Chevaliers


Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:38 pm
Profile WWW
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:05 pm
Posts: 259
Location: West Los Angeles, California
Mark wrote:
Unpinning -

1 - take a chit at the end of your turn - unpin d6 units for each chit you pull (p48)
2 - issue the Senior leader order (Tactical co-ordination, p16) take a chit, pass an experience test (p15)
3 - Roll a 6 when you are taking a morale test - Beyond the Call of Duty test occurs. If you pass the BtCoD test (p47), the unit is automatically unpinned and you can immediately issue the unit an order.

The experience test and BtCoD tables are the same and both on the QRF sheet.


So, all unpinning attempts involve taking at least 1 chit, but, if you have multiple units pinned, the player rolls a d6, and get to unpin however many units are indicated on the die/dice roll.

One key concept is that each "unit" is not a platoon, as in FoW. Think of UNIT as a STAND of troops. Or, 1 vehicle = 1 Unit

_________________
"You can never have ENOUGH Panthers." - Field Marshall Malcolm VonHee


Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:41 pm
Profile
Sergeant

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:44 pm
Posts: 375
I would not say there is any particular advantage to on table guns it's more of an opportunity to field some nice looking kit.


Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:47 pm
Profile
First Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:42 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Oak Hill, VA
Troy wrote:
Mark wrote:
Unpinning -

1 - take a chit at the end of your turn - unpin d6 units for each chit you pull (p48)
2 - issue the Senior leader order (Tactical co-ordination, p16) take a chit, pass an experience test (p15)
3 - Roll a 6 when you are taking a morale test - Beyond the Call of Duty test occurs. If you pass the BtCoD test (p47), the unit is automatically unpinned and you can immediately issue the unit an order.

The experience test and BtCoD tables are the same and both on the QRF sheet.


So, all unpinning attempts involve taking at least 1 chit, but, if you have multiple units pinned, the player rolls a d6, and get to unpin however many units are indicated on the die/dice roll.

One key concept is that each "unit" is not a platoon, as in FoW. Think of UNIT as a STAND of troops. Or, 1 vehicle = 1 Unit


Well, #3 does not require a chit. But it's also something that you are forced to do rather than a choice in the case of the other two. For #1, you can draw multiple chits and unpin multiple units (1d6 per chit). So for example, you have 2 pinned units and you really need both, you would pull two chits to make sure even rolling 2 ones you get both unpinned.

Units - 1 tank/vehicle or several infantry guys. A MG team of 3 guys is a unit. A Squad of 10 guys including a DP LMG is a unit for Soviets. A typical German platoon might be 7 units - Command Squad (3-5 guys), 3 rifle teams (5 guys) and 3 MG teams (3 guys).


Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:13 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 18 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

38,446,940 Views Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF.
Karma functions powered by Karma MOD © 2007, 2009 m157y