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28mm Battlegroup - German PzGren vs. US Rifles 
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First Sergeant
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Played on a 4x8


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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:10 pm
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Oil Barrels were used for objectives - ownership would cause the other player to draw a chit. One is in the foreground on the hill and the other is in the middle of town by the church.


Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:11 pm
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Both sides entered along the long edges a d6 random units over the first 3 turns. This is just after 1 of the 2 Sherman tanks came on for the US on their right.


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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:16 pm
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US right - advancing squads towards the ruins, ultimately they assaulted Germans who got into the Church first.


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Last edited by Mark on Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:18 pm
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First Sergeant
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German position on the hill by one objective. Marker for mortar attack.


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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:19 pm
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Pz IV looking down the road towards the middle of town. The building is just temporarily in the road! Bad photographer!


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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:21 pm
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First Sergeant
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So this is after the US squad assaulted into the Church with the help from the tank for suppressing fire. HE will do wonders. Now the Germans from the other side tried to pin the US squad in the church to not draw chits and then retake the church.


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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:23 pm
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Meanwhile, on the other side, the Sherman and WSC try to do some suppressing fire on the outside of town Germans holding the other objective. Long range fire not super effective though.


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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:26 pm
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Pz IV supporting the German right moved to the middle and took pot shots at the Sherman in the middle of town. The Sherman and the Pz IV on the German left had traded shots for 2 turns with neither getting a kill shot. At one point, the Germans had rolled 2 3s and a 4 for armor penetration, just morale checks! Finally, after two turns of shooting, the right side Pz IV took out the Sherman from the flank.


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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:29 pm
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The US squad is driven out the church, although the German squad that wanted to assault ended up pinned. Too much firepower from 2 German MG teams and the Pz IVs killed all the US guys in the church. That was enough to cause the US to draw it's final chit and drop its BR to zero.


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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:32 pm
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First Sergeant
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Fun game. We have played BG with 28s twice now and it works great for platoon+ on platoon+.

Game was 415 points per side

Germans: Pz Gren platoon, scout squad, MG42 tripod team, off-board mortars, 2 Pz IVs
USA: Rifle platoon, para scout squad, .30 cal MMG team, off-board mortars, 2 Shermans


Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:34 pm
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Out of curiosity: as a former FOW player, what are your likes/dislikes about the 28mm scale compared to 15mm?

I ask, because I'm in Los Angeles in a teeny tiny apartment. I get ONE scale. Some of my friends have suggested 28mm to bounce back and fourth with Bolt Action armies for both rules sets.


Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:56 am
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Fantastic looking game Mark.


Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:15 am
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@Tom - Thanks.

@Troy - I think we play it in 28mm because we have 28mm. The ranges in BG are longer than FoW, so it still works without suspending too much belief. Even CoC, which uses real ranges, most often has firefights in the 20-30" band. I lived in a tiny apartment in SF, so I get the limits on hobby space, but I just like the feel/look of 28s. I have 28mm ancients (Patrician Romans) and we love to get out the "big boy toys". I am not enamored of pushing hordes of tanks across a table, but rather using the tactics of the time and period to get a good game in. I think it's why I like BG now better than FoW, the pinning and overwatch mechanisms seem to offer more to my sensibilities. A platoon of 28mm and a couple of tanks occupies a pretty similar amount of space on my shelf as a FoW 15mm army. Terrain wise, I think it's about the same too, since if you play in 15mm you end up putting out more buildings to occupy the same amount of space on the table. So 12-15 rather than 4-6. So personally, I would not limit yourself to one scale over space, but realize you cannot have 4 15mm armies, but rather 2 15mm and 2 28mm. 8-) Good luck on that!


Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:37 pm
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Mark wrote:

@Troy - I think we play it in 28mm because we have 28mm. ... I am not enamored of pushing hordes of tanks across a table, but rather using the tactics of the time and period to get a good game in. I think it's why I like BG now better than FoW, the pinning and overwatch mechanisms seem to offer more to my sensibilities. A platoon of 28mm and a couple of tanks occupies a pretty similar amount of space on my shelf as a FoW 15mm army. Terrain wise, I think it's about the same too, since if you play in 15mm you end up putting out more buildings to occupy the same amount of space on the table. So 12-15 rather than 4-6. So personally, I would not limit yourself to one scale over space, but realize you cannot have 4 15mm armies, but rather 2 15mm and 2 28mm. 8-) Good luck on that!


Out of curiosity (I'm working on some articles for WWPD): Why BG and not Bolt Action at that scale? I've not played BA, and only just bought the rules for due diligence in my upcoming pieces.


Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:44 pm
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I play BA on occasion with some local friends. I like it well enough but it has not overwhelmed me because of the single piece artillery. I'm OK with a sningle tank split out to support an infantry platoon but having a single 105mm howitzer on each side of the board seems weird to me. Take the artillery and big mortars off the board in BA and I like it much more.


Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:27 pm
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First Sergeant
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Troy wrote:
Mark wrote:

@Troy - I think we play it in 28mm because we have 28mm. ... I am not enamored of pushing hordes of tanks across a table, but rather using the tactics of the time and period to get a good game in. I think it's why I like BG now better than FoW, the pinning and overwatch mechanisms seem to offer more to my sensibilities. A platoon of 28mm and a couple of tanks occupies a pretty similar amount of space on my shelf as a FoW 15mm army. Terrain wise, I think it's about the same too, since if you play in 15mm you end up putting out more buildings to occupy the same amount of space on the table. So 12-15 rather than 4-6. So personally, I would not limit yourself to one scale over space, but realize you cannot have 4 15mm armies, but rather 2 15mm and 2 28mm. 8-) Good luck on that!


Out of curiosity (I'm working on some articles for WWPD): Why BG and not Bolt Action at that scale? I've not played BA, and only just bought the rules for due diligence in my upcoming pieces.


I have played BA once and it was OK. I really like the order mechanism, but I seem to remember there being some oddities that were hard to get around. Seems like it was more along the continuum to "game", so I have not invested much time learning it or playing. BG I wanted to try since you could play bigger games with 15mm guys, so I picked up a couple of the books and gave it a try and liked it. So playing 28mm was something I wanted to try with BG to see if it worked (which it does). If it had not, I might have picked up the 2nd edition of BA.


Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:46 pm
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I only play BA for my friends. Can't have two tournament game systems to focus on. My next BA game will be Novermeber where I hope to have Odd Ball's Sherman on the table! I "think" I'll like Chain of Command.better than BA but my local 28mm guys are are all about BA. I really love the idea of the lists building and recon pre-game game in CoC maybe someday I'll get to try it. Doesn't Ed Lealend play CoC these days? I thought he's in your area.

My main local BG player also has 28mm stuff so I think I could convince him to try BG in that scale like you have. I have a bunch of 28mm WW2 unpainted. I've just been borrowing figs every time I play BA so far. Novermber will the first time I use my own 28mm WW2 stuff. And yes....I have the 28mm "Holllywood Tiger" too.


Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:36 pm
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First Sergeant
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Iron-Tom wrote:
I only play BA for my friends. Can't have two tournament game systems to focus on. My next BA game will be Novermeber where I hope to have Odd Ball's Sherman on the table! I "think" I'll like Chain of Command.better than BA but my local 28mm guys are are all about BA. I really love the idea of the lists building and recon pre-game game in CoC maybe someday I'll get to try it. Doesn't Ed Lealend play CoC these days? I thought he's in your area.

My main local BG player also has 28mm stuff so I think I could convince him to try BG in that scale like you have. I have a bunch of 28mm WW2 unpainted. I've just been borrowing figs every time I play BA so far. Novermber will the first time I use my own 28mm WW2 stuff. And yes....I have the 28mm "Holllywood Tiger" too.


Yes, we have played a bit of CoC (others more than me) and I think it got stale with some (not Ed) as the group played it heavily for about 2 years when it dropped. We started a CoC Kursk campaign before HCon and it died on scenario two for a variety of reasons. One issue might be the dice pool. It might be just too much friction sometimes and really, you just want to play with your toys. Not sure. Second, I think it plays a lot better with 2 people. It just does not seem to scale up for us. I though BG might be able to compensate for that and we could get out the 28s sometimes.


Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:47 pm
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You are supposed to love CoC, fawn over its eloquence and realism, and proclaim its virtues while denying its shortcomings. You are also supposed to vote for certain candidates and drink the kool-aid. :twisted:

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Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:25 am
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PrivateSnafu wrote:
You are supposed to love CoC, fawn over its eloquence and realism, and proclaim its virtues while denying its shortcomings. You are also supposed to vote for certain candidates and drink the kool-aid. :twisted:


Oh yes. CoC is clearly the superior game, in all respects. I think we might have been unworthy for a while and need to focus on our shortcomings so we can be good gamers again. :roll:


Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:57 pm
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CoC is freaking dead to me. I tried, I tried hard, I tried too hard. CoC only works in a patrol meeting engagement with lots of terrain. Anything else and it's too fiddly and more times than not leads to a bad game that bogs down with no maneuver. The campaigns are cool looking but just do not work and are freaking wacky. Done. This is why I think BG is a better game for my 28s. I would play Bolt Action but for the same reasons, Tom mentioned it has not caught on with the group.

And now.... to troll Mark... :D I do not like the assault phase of BG. Pins can come easy and no dice defense sucks.


Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:05 pm
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VAeric wrote:
CoC is freaking dead to me. I tried, I tried hard, I tried too hard. CoC only works in a patrol meeting engagement with lots of terrain. Anything else and it's too fiddly and more times than not leads to a bad game that bogs down with no maneuver. The campaigns are cool looking but just do not work and are freaking wacky. Done. This is why I think BG is a better game for my 28s. I would play Bolt Action but for the same reasons, Tom mentioned it has not caught on with the group.

And now.... to troll Mark... :D I do not like the assault phase of BG. Pins can come easy and no dice defense sucks.


1 - There is no "assault phase" in BG. It's an assault order given to a team(unit) during your side of the turn.

2 - Considering in the earlier game we played...I tried for 5 turns to pin a scout squad in a building. That's 5 turns of double suppressing fire with no results. Therefore, I think the issue was Sean, who walked his para rifles team (unit) up the side of the hill to within 10" of a squad of Germans (so 2 teams/units) with no support nearby at all (I think this is Sean's recon by fire move, as he has done it in CoC and SP). He had an LMG section (.30 cal) that he did not put on overwatch the whole game and left over 20" away. Within 10" is easier to pin, even with just 4 rifles and an SMG, which means then he was a much easier assault. Even then, I needed two units, then still had to pin (3+), pass his save (5+), pass the assault order (3+), then get enough casualties (he took 6 or 7 I think), and have him fail a morale check (3+). So, the chance was 4/6*4/6*4/6*2/6 = 9%

3 - So, I think a few more (say 20+) games playing by the rules before making changes is a bit more prudent. This suggests that we actually understand what actually will happen with those decisions versus just guessing in the dark. IMHO.


Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:33 pm
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But Mark, In the same game a turn latter Joe did the exact same thing to my German scout squad who were defending a building. They were pinned by a distant LMG. His squad came across the street killed all my guys and I didn't get dice of defensive fire or an opportunity to shoot since we just moved into the building. It is wacked no dice in a HtH for the defender if pinned is no good. The whole squad dies without ever firing a shot.


Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:58 pm
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VAeric wrote:
But Mark, In the same game a turn latter Joe did the exact same thing to my German scout squad who were defending a building. They were pinned by a distant LMG. His squad came across the street killed all my guys and I didn't get dice of defensive fire or an opportunity to shoot since we just moved into the building. It is wacked no dice in a HtH for the defender if pinned is no good. The whole squad dies without ever firing a shot.



1 - It's not necessarily HtH combat, but rather combat at a close distance with grenades and SMGs showing off. It could include bayonets too. However, the only difference vs a move/shoot order is you get to throw a d6 of grenade dice in an assault. I rolled a 6 I think in the combat vs Sean, so rolled 11 dice in the assault.

2 - I don't understand why it's "wacked" to have no dice for a pinned unit. If I apply your logic, a "move/shoot" order and moving to 5" would also give a defender some sort of "defensive bonus fire"?

3 - Applying what I mentioned above, you can get your squad killed in BG without it ever firing a shot a lot of ways. For example, the enemy shoots suppressing fire then aimed fire and your squad gets pinned then takes a casualty. Morale check fails and you run after one guy becomes a casualty (33% chance of running BTW).

So here's how I saw it go down: Your guys were too busy dodging bullets from the LMG team and hiding...so they did not see Joe's squad cross the street and shoot at you...then your squad ran/became casualties/etc. Make up a narrative, just like you did for teleporting M10s. If you want more realism, go back to playing CoC. But, after playing all of maybe 6 games?, to think you need to change a core mechanic of the game seems illogical to me.


Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:08 pm
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