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First Sergeant
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Yeah...


http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=5579


I really need to think this through. Guys, read the details provided...

I don't want to be that negative guy right away here, so I am really trying to keep a more open mind than in the past. I just do not like the idea of hidden unit cards or bumps (like knackers) and have them sprung up on me. Sure, it is different and different does not mean bad. But I always liked the full disclosure part of the game and really, really disliked it when playing a game my opponent would spring something in me like "oh, yeah... that command stand has 8 knackers!"

Now there will be cards at the table that are face down. TOs will have to legislate how you record the card for what unit because I can see some folks trying to use a floating knacker card. The Fog of War cards for missions / points cannot really be used in a tournament.

With some warriors, it is sounding like the special rules that got "cleaned up" were really just moved to a card. Do we think that is better?

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Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:57 pm
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This muffler keeps getting more expensive.

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Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:17 pm
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Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:39 pm
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I'm suspicious of the command cards too but if the Panzer Knacker is an example they might not be too unbalancing cost wise. The Portee I'll have to see. My imagination has no problem conceiving out of control cheese so I'll wait and hope they don't create any "Must Haves".

The Fog of War cards SEEM like a good idea. I'm feeling positive that those can make for more interesting games, but again I'm staying tight lipped for now.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:26 pm
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First Sergeant
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FoW = Fantasy of War now. :(


Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:29 pm
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Six points to equip my three Infantry Platoons with Panzerknackers that only work for one turn? Sorry but no.

BF has went the X-wing route with Version 4. While I understand the card system is very popular right now, I think it is out of place in a Historical game.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:17 pm
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In general I am ok with the Command Cards, mostly for the fact that it allows us round out forces with some of the missing kit that many of us complained about. I do take these to be "Optional" as stated. I can see some TOs allowing them and others not. That's just fine. I think I would want them to be an option at my events, but Command Cards not being an option would not be a deal breaker for me considering attending an event elsewhere. At $5 a pack, I'm happy to experiment with them more. I found Andrew's comments that these were planned at the inception of V4 interesting.

I think I'm OK with the hidden nature of some of these. It is a bit unrealistic for us to know what opposing unit would have Panzerkackers, but then it is also a bit unrealistic to have the owning player decide at that last minute which of his three Afrika Rifle Squads has it. I'd rather have a card be assigned by the owning player at game start to a given unit, but am OK with the opponent not knowing which unit has that upgrade until it is employed. I'm quite OK with some of these cards being "one shot" cards. Great way to manage limited assets in a game. I'd love to see a one use off-board artillery Card, or something like a one use smoke bombardment upgrade for Soviets or maybe a US smoke bombardment reload for US. I guess we could see minefield cards. I really am looking forward to seeing the full decks for each set.

The biggest potential disappointment for me with these Command Decks is that they don't appear to add whole new units. It's great that I can now "upgrade" a 6pdr unit to Portee, but best as I can tell I'm still missing 2pdr ATG units (unless there is a "downgrade" card in the pack). I suppose I'm still wondering what the "Wildcard" slot is all about and hoping that completely new kit can be added via that box. The new formation cards may have some utility. We have at least one local NZ Cav player that will be very excited to have that card.

The Fog of War cards seem very interesting too. I really need more information to asses them fully though. I like the idea of recon units being able to earn VPs for conducting recon. What I'm not sure about is how we play the standard missions while also using these cards or if we even do? Can we use multiple Fog of War cards? If we used these in a tournament can we pick a new cards each round? Do we randomly draw "Fog of War" cards? Lots here keeping me from making a full assessments on these.

Together, I see both of these decks as a positive effort. They may not work perfectly, they may not scratch all of our itches, but for God's sake they are adding in some interesting options and adding in a new breath of life into a game that has become very stagnant and predictable over the decade I've been playing it. I applaud BF for taking some initiative here and for trying new things to expand our gaming horizons within FoW. I was just about "done" with FoW until I started trying V4, now at least I'm excited about new possibilities and trying new things out. How well they actually pan out remains to be seen, but I'm not dejected and put out by these new concepts at all.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:31 pm
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First Sergeant
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Tom -

I am torn. I had high hopes when I heard about the cards. But seeing them in the preview is not really what I expected. I understand the stale comment, but the challenge back is that since V3, BF has introduced:

Early War Soviets, Finns, Japanese
PTO with two books
Three Bulge books and two compilations
Market Garden compilations
Remagen, Nacht...
Berlin books
LW Italy and compilations
D-Day Part Three...

Was the mechanic so bad that it made the game stale? Or was it stale because it just became new units / special rules / warriors? Stale is not an adjective that I would use, rather I would use... codex creep. It just got old. New American book... yay... better arty. New Soviet book... yay... no vets. New German book... yay... jet ground attack fighters. But the content was new and the mechanic was solid. I think we all agreed previously that tweaks were necessary, not wholesale changes.

And now we get action cards that give us... special rules! And warriors! And guess what, some of the special rules are not disclosed until they are used. Really? I guess so... it just isn't what I liked about FoW. You never hid units or didn't disclose what was going in Reserve. But now I can have some special thingy out there that my opponent won't know. Does that make the game different? Sure does! But does it make it better? Or more fun? I just don't see it being all that fun when someone turns over the "Staff of Ra" card and it decimates my platoon. But maybe there is going to be a "Head of Osiris" that will counter that card...

Candidly, I will buy the cards because I just want to see them. But then we will get cards for Italians, Americans, Soviets, etc... Again, not feeling super confident right now and I don't like that. I played this weekend with the old play test guys. It was labeled a "send off for V3." I had a blast! Food, drink, dice, exploding models... all was great! That is what I want. I am not sure that the Command Cards will add to that fun.

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Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:48 pm
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True Allen, it was nice to see new books come out throughout V3 and I bought them all! But for me, the game still was very stale overall in the sense that we seemed to always see the same lists played in the same way at event after event. So much so that my tournament interest dropped to just about zero. I had not run a tournament in years and attended very few in a continuous downward spiral.

Then V4. I tied it and actually liked it. So now I'm running a tournament in May and planning on attending no less than five V4 tournaments over the next four months. None of that would be happening for me if V3 was still the main FoW rules set. Simply, FoW is exciting and dynamic for me now but I'm sorry that V4 has soured the game for others. We'll see how long that will last, but V3 was basically done for me anyway. I can appreciate my friends who have negative attitudes about V4. I am totally happy to see them drive on with V3 if that works best for them, but they basically already lost me for V3 anyway long before V4 was even announced.

So for me the cards are kind of cool and I'm interested to seeing how they work out. I hope my optimism is rewarded, but if not, no real loss as I was done with V3 for all practical purposes anyway.

Quote:
I had a blast! Food, drink, dice, exploding models... all was great! That is what I want. I am not sure that the Command Cards will add to that fun.


That's what I want too. Maybe Command Cards will add to that or maybe not. Just not going to condemn them now and am looking forward to seeing how much I can get out of them.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:22 pm
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Technical Sergeant
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I'm honestly more interested in the "build" cards than anything else... it brings transports back to the game in MW, though they're expensive, but at least that's a step in the right direction. My question is what other build cards are hidden in the deck? What else comes back that is missing from previous versions? That's going to largely make or break V4 MW for me. That being said, I still have a lot of LW and VLW to build up, and the V4 rules work just fine for that - so that may be where my time and money goes for a while.

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Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:24 pm
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PrivateSnafu wrote:
This muffler keeps getting more expensive.


Yep the 2 books + cards are about the same cost as North Africa . :shock:

LES

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Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:20 pm
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I'm gonna have to revise my opinion: Flames of Sigmar: the WWII Team Yankee P2W and DLC Miniatures Game.


Quote:
"Staff of Ra" card ... "Head of Osiris" card


Ha! Both are easily countered by my "Nazi Flying Saucer" card, before I deliver the knock-out blow with my "Hitlersaurus T-Rex" card.

Dude, you need to build a better deck. And no Captain America card because, you know...copyright and stuff.

CdlT

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Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:21 pm
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First Sergeant
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Iron-Tom wrote:
True Allen, it was nice to see new books come out throughout V3 and I bought them all! But for me, the game still was very stale overall in the sense that we seemed to always see the same lists played in the same way at event after event. So much so that my tournament interest dropped to just about zero. I had not run a tournament in years and attended very few in a continuous downward spiral.

Then V4. I tied it and actually liked it. So now I'm running a tournament in May and planning on attending no less than five V4 tournaments over the next four months. None of that would be happening for me if V3 was still the main FoW rules set. Simply, FoW is exciting and dynamic for me now but I'm sorry that V4 has soured the game for others. We'll see how long that will last, but V3 was basically done for me anyway. I can appreciate my friends who have negative attitudes about V4. I am totally happy to see them drive on with V3 if that works best for them, but they basically already lost me for V3 anyway long before V4 was even announced.

So for me the cards are kind of cool and I'm interested to seeing how they work out. I hope my optimism is rewarded, but if not, no real loss as I was done with V3 for all practical purposes anyway.

Quote:
I had a blast! Food, drink, dice, exploding models... all was great! That is what I want. I am not sure that the Command Cards will add to that fun.


That's what I want too. Maybe Command Cards will add to that or maybe not. Just not going to condemn them now and am looking forward to seeing how much I can get out of them.


OK, maybe I am confused by your comments. Since v3 was stale - same old lists at each tournament - and now you are playing in 5 v4 events - with a grand total of 10 lists. ??


Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:36 pm
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V4 removed unnecessary complexity, for a month. The cards brought that back. Yay.

And one time use Panzerknacker cards? Not diggin that at all.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:52 pm
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Mark wrote:
OK, maybe I am confused by your comments. Since v3 was stale - same old lists at each tournament - and now you are playing in 5 v4 events - with a grand total of 10 lists. ??


Only one of those V4 events is MW, one is EW, and three are LW. I will enjoy the new V4 rules in EW & LW because, as been stated by even the V4 detractors here, there is a huge shift in meta for EW & LW. I will enjoy V4 for quite sometime to come I think.

Guess I can't explain well enough, but V4 has been a big boost for me. I'm not going to be griping on and on for the next few years anyway. I will clearly be enjoying myself in ways that otherwise would not have been happening in FoW under V3. Hopefully tracer burnout for me will not occur for me prior to V5 and hopefully those who truck on with V3 will find V5 more to their liking and we can all play the same game system again.

It is what it is. Some will enjoy V4, some will drive on with V3, and some will just quit FoW entirely. All three COAs are perfectly acceptable.


Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:10 pm
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First Sergeant
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Mark wrote:
OK, maybe I am confused by your comments. Since v3 was stale - same old lists at each tournament - and now you are playing in 5 v4 events - with a grand total of 10 lists. ??


Only one of those V4 events is MW, one is EW, and three are LW. I will enjoy the new V4 rules in EW & LW because, as been stated by even the V4 detractors here, there is a huge shift in meta for EW & LW. I will enjoy V4 for quite sometime to come I think.

Guess I can't explain well enough, but V4 has been a big boost for me. I'm not going to be griping on and on for the next few years anyway. I will clearly be enjoying myself in ways that otherwise would not have been happening in FoW under V3. Hopefully tracer burnout for me will not occur for me prior to V5 and hopefully those who truck on with V3 will find V5 more to their liking and we can all play the same game system again.

It is what it is. Some will enjoy V4, some will drive on with V3, and some will just quit FoW entirely. All three COAs are perfectly acceptable.


I guess I will be in the third category, at least until something better comes along. After spending years of playing and buying, it's hard to give up, but I am not happy to go with the "micro-transaction" card driven shit that BF is dropping on us, especially when the TO&Es are pretty much set. It's just a way for BF to be lazy and squeeze every $$ they can out of their "IP".


Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:43 pm
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Yep. Good luck finding your gaming happiness. Hope something works for you as much as V4 is working for me today!


Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:48 pm
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ChevalierDeLaTerre wrote:
I'm gonna have to revise my opinion: Flames of Sigmar: the WWII Team Yankee P2W and DLC Miniatures Game.


Quote:
"Staff of Ra" card ... "Head of Osiris" card


Ha! Both are easily countered by my "Nazi Flying Saucer" card, before I deliver the knock-out blow with my "Hitlersaurus T-Rex" card.

CdlT


That Nazi Flying Saucer card unfortunately costs 101 points.


Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:47 am
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"I guess I will be in the third category, at least until something better comes along. After spending years of playing and buying, it's hard to give up, but I am not happy to go with the "micro-transaction" card driven shit that BF is dropping on us, especially when the TO&Es are pretty much set. It's just a way for BF to be lazy and squeeze every $$ they can out of their "IP"."


And this unfortunately is what it is all about. While I totally understand that Battlefront is a business when the business model becomes the overwhelming driver for the game content then I am afraid you will polarize the gaming community.

I understand all the arguments from both sides but the balance from gaming to business shifted dramatically from V2 to V3 and has now unfortunately gone to a whole new level.


Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:27 am
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Like a lot of people I had an initial knee jerk response to the cards when that spotlight went up.

Having played various wargame systems over the years (as well as RPGs, board games and so on) I've gotten very used to knowing what my opponent has. Knowing which unit I want to engage and which one I want to avoid. Then these cards start to add 'hidden' extras and with some lasting just a single turn. Instant dislike but then thinking harder about it I thought this adds a bit of 'fog of war' to the battlefield. Yes I know that unit over there is so big but until I engage I have no idea if they have extra AT assets, so do I risk the big tanks or test them with some cheaper units. Maybe I can accept this. Likewise my Tigers can have ROF 3, just like me selecting the better crews to use in the battle rather than the average ones. And so on.

I really need to play with them before I can continue being a 'hater' or not.

But then one thing I can't change on and that is the cards are immediately undoing all the simplification that v.4 was all about. v.3 started off with a convoluted rule set with some rules being spread over 3 or 4 different sections. Then as each book came out we saw new 'rules' added special units that started to make things even more complex. When v.4 landed it was simple but before even the first expansion book is released we get a heap of special rules and units that again makes it more complex (but not in a good way). Why do something to make things easier and then immediately undo any of the good work ? The statement that they are optional doesn't wash as it means I either don't attend the tournaments that have them or the ones that don't. I simply don't have the time or inclination to play two different versions of FoW.

Of course since I'm in Australia this is all academic since the local non-distributor probably won't have any locally until 2018. The MW books have only just started appearing this week.

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Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:46 am
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First Sergeant
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Yep. Good luck finding your gaming happiness. Hope something works for you as much as V4 is working for me today!


No luck needed. I already have too many great games crowding out flames already.


Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:50 am
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Great to hear!


Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:14 am
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Personally I really like what I'm seeing of the cards so far. Have to actually try them, but I think they will make v4 MW a better game and v4 is IMHO already better than v3 just in terms of the rules.

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Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:25 am
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First Sergeant
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Great to hear!


Its nice you like v4 too Tom.


Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:06 am
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Thanks! I am also enjoying other games as well!


Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:08 am
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Version 4, to me, is a good ruleset.
It changed the dynamic of the game and how things work.
Trying to figure out new lists and nw dynamics is fun.
But really - skimpy MW books and then cards released to included options that SHOULD have been included in the books in the first place. Really - they had to make a card for portee and transports.
My group is enjoying learning version 4 with LW, but this whole MW thing has left a bad taste in our mouths - no one even mentions MW now. If we want to play a card based game we will play x-wing.


Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:45 pm
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