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Iron-Tom wrote:
fingolfen wrote:
At the end of the day it is abundantly clear that at this point Battlefront believes it needs to fundamentally change the business model, scope, and presentation of Flames of War for it to remain a viable from an economic standpoint. The initial results that they've achieved with their MW release, ... because I've seen what happens when it doesn't, and it isn't pretty. Of course if they'd done nothing, the end result would have been equally bad, and when faced with a choice like that I always believe you have to keep swinging...


Great post Mike. A much needed balanced perspective that I reflected on much today.


Agree :)


Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:33 am
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Mark wrote:
Starik wrote:
Mark wrote:
If the army books are a bit daunting then what game systems are you coming from?


Maybe you missed the part about new gamers? I've been playing wargames since 1970, so I can't give you an exhaustive list. I was just looking at it from the new gamer's point of view. It's not that the lists themselves were so daunting, it was the sheer number of them. Without a guide you could get lost figuring out what to take. While most of us had an experienced guide, this is not a universal state of affairs.

If you look at, say, Grey Wolf from the point of view of someone who has never played any war game, let alone FoW, I think you may get my point.


Right. You were not the target of my question. I have introduced the game to many new players at hmgs conventions. But I have yet to meet this new gamer that buys FoW without a play group in hand. In fact, does anyone buy historical miniatures in this fashion at all ? Hence my question.


A buddy and I recently decided to start Muskets and Tomahawks without anyone else being involved. We live a few hours apart. We started Napoleons Battles this way back in the early nineties and though we enjoyed it, had many frustrations. Most of those frustrations are now lessened by the ease of internet shipping but not all. Online gaming is now a much bigger competitor though. In fact, I suspect that some expense level for online gaming is simply cooked into most new gamers' budgets so miniatures is going to be layered on top of that.

BF will tell you that tournament players are about 20% of sales, and while I disagree with that figure your question makes me think it misses the point. FoW originally took off due to the whole package which for most of us included it being something a local store could carry profitably. The store had a group. Now, not all stores have groups, and many groups have no store.

Most of our local players would not call ourselves tournament players anymore, but shouldn't the question be if we are a group player? Then, if our group plays at a store and whether we buy from a store would then be important.

BF has stated they want V4 accessible to new players and easier for stores to carry. I'm now wondering what questions were asked of whom before they planned for V4. While I see that V4 is making improvements to lots of things, I'm not sure all those improvements are really focused on releasing a game that someone with zero FOW knowledge will want to pick up.


Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:15 pm
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This is now off-topic, so I will start a new thread for this question.


Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:12 pm
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Quote:
A buddy and I recently decided to start Muskets and Tomahawks without anyone else being involved. We live a few hours apart. We started Napoleons Battles this way back in the early nineties and though we enjoyed it, had many frustrations. Most of those frustrations are now lessened by the ease of internet shipping but not all. Online gaming is now a much bigger competitor though. In fact, I suspect that some expense level for online gaming is simply cooked into most new gamers' budgets so miniatures is going to be layered on top of that.


Oh man, Napoleon's Battles. That brings back many fond memories, love that game!


Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:29 pm
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Mameluke wrote:
Quote:
A buddy and I recently decided to start Muskets and Tomahawks without anyone else being involved. We live a few hours apart. We started Napoleons Battles this way back in the early nineties and though we enjoyed it, had many frustrations. Most of those frustrations are now lessened by the ease of internet shipping but not all. Online gaming is now a much bigger competitor though. In fact, I suspect that some expense level for online gaming is simply cooked into most new gamers' budgets so miniatures is going to be layered on top of that.


Oh man, Napoleon's Battles. That brings back many fond memories, love that game!


You should try Grand Battle Napoleon. Published by Siegeworks. We have been having a lot of fun with it.


Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:39 pm
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Commented over on other thread, but the point I was making is I think the Card Decks are looking like something that won't make anyone very happy. FFG makes a mint on this sort of stuff, but they don't also require a three hundred dollar buy in on top of it.

The existing base is NOT going to want, IMO, one time use, secret cards for their game where there have never been any secrets. Why is it you know where my mine fields are, which tanks have exactly what equipment, and yet can't know certain other bits about my army?

Edit: Oh, and btw, FFG is getting a good amount of push back from players about how their cards are starting to overwhelm the players who aren't full time tournament goers. Very similar to the special rules overload complaints on V3.


Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:44 pm
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UndergroundWarren wrote:
Commented over on other thread, but the point I was making is I think the Card Decks are looking like something that won't make anyone very happy. FFG makes a mint on this sort of stuff, but they don't also require a three hundred dollar buy in on top of it.

The existing base is NOT going to want, IMO, one time use, secret cards for their game where there have never been any secrets. Why is it you know where my mine fields are, which tanks have exactly what equipment, and yet can't know certain other bits about my army?

Edit: Oh, and btw, FFG is getting a good amount of push back from players about how their cards are starting to overwhelm the players who aren't full time tournament goers. Very similar to the special rules overload complaints on V3.


I agree on the cards to special rules for v3. That was the complaint in v3 (and US artillery). It seems v4 is geared more towards "gamers" and less towards "historical players". IMHO.


Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:15 am
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Where are people getting the impression the cards are "secret"? I assume this is not the case. For example, if you have two different infantry unit and only one of them has panzerfausts then surely you have to declare at the start of the game which unit has them and which does not. Also, because they cost points you would have to declare everything ahead of time.

My only complaint with this is that now a new player has to gather rules from several different sources (main rules, army book, command cards) to make a full force. If they keep going this route, it may start to look like the hodge-podge that was Warhammer 40k 2nd edition. But 40k 2nd edition was fun... if a little crazy.


Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:10 pm
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Some actually are not declared until employed. See Panzerknackers. Others seem to be indicated on the "build."


Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:06 pm
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DJTommyC wrote:
Where are people getting the impression the cards are "secret"? I assume this is not the case. For example, if you have two different infantry unit and only one of them has panzerfausts then surely you have to declare at the start of the game which unit has them and which does not. Also, because they cost points you would have to declare everything ahead of time.

My only complaint with this is that now a new player has to gather rules from several different sources (main rules, army book, command cards) to make a full force. If they keep going this route, it may start to look like the hodge-podge that was Warhammer 40k 2nd edition. But 40k 2nd edition was fun... if a little crazy.

To build on Tom's comment above...

Based on the reading of the article and the actual images from BF, the cards that are not labeled "build" are purchased, but not declared. Take the image of knackers - you pay 2 pts (I believe) and then you get knackers in a platoon. But you do not disclose to your opponent which platoons. I can only surmise that the same would be true for sticky bombs and other "add-ons."

Here is the direct quote from the article:

Most Command cards are hidden until they are used, so you’re never quite sure what your opponent’s battle plans are until they are revealed. While hidden Command cards do not affect their attached unit, a player must reveal them if they wish to gain the cards benefits. Some Command cards must be revealed at the start of the game, these cards are used to build your army and have the keyword Build.

So yes, it is the case that these will not be disclosed.

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Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:55 pm
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Some actually are not declared until employed. See Panzerknackers. Others seem to be indicated on the "build."

Can you imagine the sheer coincidence of the number of times you assault a platoon in a tournament and it is the "one" that has the upgrade...every time.

Now don't get me wrong, I've played against opponents of integrity at many tournaments, but I've played against just as many at all costs gamers as well.


Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:54 pm
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Not having seen but a few Command Cards I am not really concerned about what I have seen. The Panzerknackers and Sticky Bombs being a single use and the fact that the Knackers are now TA3 in Assault instead of TA5 in V3 makes them far from overpowering to be sprung on some poor unsuspecting Tank Platoon. Having played EW French with Supply Carriers I am familiar with using "Use and Gone" add-ons though in their case they must be attached at the beginning of the game. So holding something like that in secret is new but I think we will quickly have a good idea of what cards our opponents might choose out of the deck and can plan accordingly how to potentially deal with them. I see it as an added challenge to my tactical decisions not as some huge "gotcha" surprise.

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Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:41 am
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We'll have to see the decks before we really know for sure. Right now I'm worried that part of the game will become list audits in order to get intel on what cards your opponent has. There really is no solution that isn't problematic or leads to occasional bad events.


Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:20 am
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I am more worried that you will need books + cards and not just "books" to play the "whole" game now. I guess if it's all "cards" that would work too if one did not need the books. Either way, it's just a way to make money off WW2 "IP". Historical lists are historical lists, so instead of a minor update and having Phil invent something new, we get revamp of the "IP". It's tiring buying the same lists 3 and 4 times with very minor adjustments.


Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:28 am
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Towards the end of the v.3 era we got a situation where someone (usually me) is using a fairly basic and generic list from a book that was a few years old ends up opposed to someone using the latest 'digital only' list that seems to have a more flexible list structure and a few 'unknown to me' rules or platoon extras with some nice buffs.

Soon we get under v.4 someone (probably me again) is using a fairly basic and generic list from a book (as that is all they have) and ends up opposing some using a 'card enhanced' list which has a more flexible list structure and a few 'unknown' extra rules or platoon extras.

I see these CCs as just like the digital extras of only a few months ago, except I'll be much further behind a much bigger 8-ball than previously.

Do I buy them ? If I decide to stay with FoW (undecided as yet) then yes, I might still just like I bought some final 40K items that never got used (including a rulebook) before I shelved that game.

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Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:06 am
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USChris wrote:
Not having seen but a few Command Cards I am not really concerned about what I have seen. The Panzerknackers and Sticky Bombs being a single use and the fact that the Knackers are now TA3 in Assault instead of TA5 in V3 makes them far from overpowering to be sprung on some poor unsuspecting Tank Platoon. Having played EW French with Supply Carriers I am familiar with using "Use and Gone" add-ons though in their case they must be attached at the beginning of the game. So holding something like that in secret is new but I think we will quickly have a good idea of what cards our opponents might choose out of the deck and can plan accordingly how to potentially deal with them. I see it as an added challenge to my tactical decisions not as some huge "gotcha" surprise.


I know you raise a few good points here. And at first blush, perhaps the "gotcha" isn't all that massive.

However...

Let's go back to the first special rule or warrior. At the time, it felt new and like a good idea. I mean, what could possibly go wrong with a rule that is special... and then we get 250 of them (not that much of an exaggeration).

Initially, perhaps the cards are a good idea. But I think the path itself is not the best one, even if the first step is still on solid ground.

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Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:51 pm
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By the time I feel like buying them, I doubt I'll be able to get them. They'll have to constantly reprint these cards, from the first ones all the way up to the latest and greatest set a few years from now.


Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:12 pm
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I'm waiting for the first "limited edition collector's series" release.

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Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:20 pm
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I'm just looking forward to getting on with gaming! We'll see how well cards work or don't work at US Nationals this July.


Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:57 pm
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I wish I would have kept my Axis and Allies miniatures; they came with cards.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:24 am
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Ha! I bought tons of Axis & Allies stuff cheap. Repainted they are serviceable enough for FoW. Did not save the cards though. No need.


Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:41 am
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