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V4 a dull thud? 
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Gothmog wrote:
not buying it, both figuratively and literally.


No problem with that at all Bill! I think you've made that clear more than a few times and I think I have supported that decision every time. It's important that you don't buy V4 Books/Cards if you are that opposed to them. Sale returns will speak much louder than anything we post here. Good on you!


Tue May 16, 2017 2:31 pm
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UndergroundWarren wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's the reverse. Under the new paradigm, the trucks are extraneous to the game. They were "streamlined" out.

The cards are for grognards who still want to use old stuff that they took out of the game to appeal to new players.


That's the test anyway. Will the new design approach actually generate new players or not? If it works "great," BF will be happy. If not they will change course of action.

I've said before that to me V4 MW is an experiment whose benefit and outcome is still to be determined. I am sure BF felt the needed to change in some substantial ways. Will it do more harm than good? Will each grognard, who probably has just about all models they will need, that bails be replaced by an eager new recruit who wants to embark on buying and building new armies?

It don't know, and I'm not confident that it will work, but what I am pretty sure about was that FoW reached its zenith under V3 long ago and from my perspective has been atrophying since. I suspect to BF "Business as usual" was not going cut it anymore as they likely felt the atrophy too.

Play it, don't play it, whatever works for you, but I for one am interested in how this experiment will or will not work out and will be involved in the process by participating while others can be equally involved in the process just as well by not participating.


Tue May 16, 2017 2:48 pm
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Interesting perspective... allow me to provide my own:

What BF could have done was to go into "maintenance mode" with V4. Take V3, issue some tweaks and go from there. Heck, even if you wanted to change up shooting and allow the shooter to assign the hits, go for it.

Then morph the FoW into small theater books. For example, EW Norway. LW Pacific with Saipan and Okinawa. Who knows... but use little resources from the design team and maybe invest in cleaning up some special rules.

And then take all the other resources and focus on Team Yankee. Let's not forget that the people who write the books, sculpt the models, play test, manufacture and distribute FoW are also doing Team Yankee. Why put another dollar [insert local currency here] into the FoW machine, when I can put that into TY and get a greater return? Add more lists and get TY on the tournament scene in a big way.

That is not business as usual and that does not create a schism in the community. Just a thought...

And by the way, different topic:

If we are seeing command cards in FoW, what is to prevent getting command cards in TY?

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Tue May 16, 2017 3:36 pm
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If only BF would hire you as a consultant then all would have been good to go!

TY Cards? Sure if they actually work in MW, bring it. I would appreciate things eventually getting uniform across all FoW periods/variants be that with cards or without. I'm just not immediately assessing Command Cards as flop before I even get to have them in my hands or try them. I'm prepared to allow BF to experiment in MW V4 with new approaches and will let the folks whose livelihoods depend on the success or failure of that approach determine if the approach was a success.


Tue May 16, 2017 3:57 pm
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Tom -

I am not saying my perspective is right. I am merely offering another viewpoint...

Underlying all of this is a simple fact - BF sucks at communicating and publicity. Sucks. That was one of the missions Stevie Mac had when he was in NZ.

Imagine if BF has been super transparent about what was going on maybe 6 months ago. What would it be like if they had mentioned the two books were going to be very narrow with lists, that they were retooling for plastic, that they were going to offer the command cards and - get this - they were going to have a conversion to EW and LW! Shoot, they even could have tried to do a conversion to MW, so that players could bridge the gap between release and when their books came out (US, Italians, Soviets, Finns, etc.).

But what we got was... not that.

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Tue May 16, 2017 7:55 pm
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So, Steve moved all the way to NZ, lasted maybe a year, and now apparently doesn't even play the game anymore. So much for the communication effort. But, BF is not alone in having trouble communicating. Even a mega corporation like United Airlines takes multiple, embarrassingly tone-deaf attempts to respond to its customers. United's, like BF's, troubles seem so preventable--in retrospect at least.

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Tue May 16, 2017 8:13 pm
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For me, it all boils down to a very few simple points:

  • BF believes that V4 and the MW "reboot" was the direction they needed to go to keep FoW economically viable.
  • I think they're alienating long-time players chasing new dollars.
  • I think that will hurt them in the long run and it won't be able to generate the sustained returns they're looking for.
  • I hope I'm wrong.

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Tue May 16, 2017 9:47 pm
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webgriffin wrote:

Underlying all of this is a simple fact - BF sucks at communicating and publicity. Sucks. That was one of the missions Stevie Mac had when he was in NZ.

Imagine if BF has been super transparent about what was going on maybe 6 months ago. What would it be like if they had mentioned the two books were going to be very narrow with lists, that they were retooling for plastic, that they were going to offer the command cards and - get this - they were going to have a conversion to EW and LW! Shoot, they even could have tried to do a conversion to MW, so that players could bridge the gap between release and when their books came out (US, Italians, Soviets, Finns, etc.).

But what we got was... not that.


I can't disagree with any of that. BF has never been good at communications/PR. They seem to try, but yes they always seem doomed to miss the mark.

webgriffin wrote:
Tom -

I am not saying my perspective is right. I am merely offering another viewpoint... .


It's perfectly valid. BF could do well to listen to you more.

But here we are. The communication sucks. Check. The plan/program is possibly flawed/misguided. Check. So what do we do now?

Easy answer for me. I'm gaming on and having fun with V4 so long as it provides me that. And while it does do that I'll be pointing out there is still fun to be had in V4 despite the wave of negativity being pushed by others. V3 was at tracer burnout for me, so I'm at least one guy BF has managed to keep in the fold by the changes. Others are moving on, less happy with changes. Totally understandable, but in many cases it's not clear to what extent they may have actually tired the game. That disappoints me as I think they are missing out on some good gaming, but I'll get over it and will respect their decisions.

BashOn wrote:
So, Steve moved all the way to NZ, lasted maybe a year, and now apparently doesn't even play the game anymore.


Yes. Steven, the guy who got WWPD going as a FoW Fan site in the first place dropped FoW long before there was any hint of V4 blowing in the wind. My understanding is that he sold off all of his sizable FoW collections. Dirty John? Ed Leland, Eric Rhia, and many other really cool dudes I loved to game with at the big events n V2 and early days of V3 were all gone long before V4. Walter Moore, Erin MP, Larry Booster, Jon Cleaves (w/ the whole Kansas City Crew), the list goes on and on. V4 had nothing to do with any of their departures from FoW. I miss them, but don't blame them. I also don't blame BF. Things get stale, people get burned out. It's all very natural.

Many of those dropping FoW now I suspect are simply at that break-point anyway and are just looking for a reason to ditch FoW anyway. V4 gave many a reason, but in how many cases was that just hastening the inevitable? Unlike others, I don't blame BF for it. BF has to do what they think they have to do. They had to try something new, maybe even radical as V4. Could they communicate better? Sure! Could they get more community input in to the future of the game? Sure! But I'm not sure they deserve the bashing they're getting lately and I'm not sure many of the rule changes in V4 are truly as bad as they often are made out to be.

In the end it's very simple. If you like the game and get a return for your investment in time, money, and sweat for it...drive on and have fun with it! If not, what are you waiting for? Move out and explore new areas and find fun there, but I'd hope a long time FoW player would at least give V4 an honest try first. Dismiss me has a "fanboy" all you want. All I've got to say is there's a lot of good gaming potential to be had with V4 especially if one allows time for BF to work out the bugs, like they always have. There is a decent community of guys playing V4 out there that I like to play against. I'll be seeing about a dozen of them on Saturday. I'll be seeing some more at NASHCON, then some more at DIECON, then much more at Historicon. Not all of the guys I'd hope to see at these events will be there for sure! But I'm confident that those of us who are will be enjoying ourselves. That's all that matters to me.


Tue May 16, 2017 9:50 pm
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fingolfen wrote:
For me, it all boils down to a very few simple points:

  • BF believes that V4 and the MW "reboot" was the direction they needed to go to keep FoW economically viable.
  • I think they're alienating long-time players chasing new dollars.
  • I think that will hurt them in the long run and it won't be able to generate the sustained returns they're looking for.
  • I hope I'm wrong.


You may have nailed it. But I'm not sure many long-time players were not already dropping off the radar. Attrition is inevitable regardless of the game system.


Tue May 16, 2017 9:55 pm
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I think part of the problem with V4 - MW especially - was the expectation setting. MW never got a true V3 update. Sure, it was perfectly playable, and honestly I enjoyed playing MW, but there were some issues.

Then there was the debacle with the V3 "pseudo-update" that the fan base believed was going to be true MW V3, and it fell far short of that... the damage control on that lasted at least a couple of months.

Then here comes V4, and we're going back to MW where it all started... and BF delivers a couple of skinny books covering about 25% of what used to be in the German and British lists... and that's it at release. No Americans, no Italians, no Eastern Front - so those guys really can't "play V4" at this point without using the old V3 lists - which aren't going to work paired up with the German / UK lists. And the German and British players are praying their missing kit is in the command cards or a future release...

In short, V4, especially MW, wasn't really what most of the existing player base was expecting. It over-promised and under-delivered. That comes down to corporate communication and relationship with their customer base.

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Tue May 16, 2017 10:03 pm
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Iron-Tom wrote:
fingolfen wrote:
For me, it all boils down to a very few simple points:

  • BF believes that V4 and the MW "reboot" was the direction they needed to go to keep FoW economically viable.
  • I think they're alienating long-time players chasing new dollars.
  • I think that will hurt them in the long run and it won't be able to generate the sustained returns they're looking for.
  • I hope I'm wrong.


You may have nailed it. But I'm not sure many long-time players were not already dropping off the radar. Attrition is inevitable regardless of the game system.


Absolutely - you always have attrition, but there are ways to open the door to new players without slamming the door shut on old players, but BF didn't choose to go that way.

You can't do anything about the people who'd already left or were most of the way out of the door, but slamming the door is a sure fire method of pushing anyone who was on the fence out... and maybe others as well.

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Tue May 16, 2017 10:06 pm
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fingolfen wrote:
Iron-Tom wrote:
fingolfen wrote:
For me, it all boils down to a very few simple points:

  • BF believes that V4 and the MW "reboot" was the direction they needed to go to keep FoW economically viable.
  • I think they're alienating long-time players chasing new dollars.
  • I think that will hurt them in the long run and it won't be able to generate the sustained returns they're looking for.
  • I hope I'm wrong.


You may have nailed it. But I'm not sure many long-time players were not already dropping off the radar. Attrition is inevitable regardless of the game system.


Absolutely - you always have attrition, but there are ways to open the door to new players without slamming the door shut on old players, but BF didn't choose to go that way.

You can't do anything about the people who'd already left or were most of the way out of the door, but slamming the door is a sure fire method of pushing anyone who was on the fence out... and maybe others as well.


I think some of this has to do with the Dust blow-up. Here was an opportunity for BF to own the IP and produce and it was a huge disappointment. Now they are re-tooling FoW to bump sales. There is no reason to move to a 100 point scale than to obfuscate your points formula to force players to buy content again. Why do I need the MW books? I have them from 2 other versions. If they only tweak the points then there is less chance of a player re-buying the same content, especially if there is a Forces of War or equivalent website that I can get updated points from. Simply BF used to use content to sell models, now like Vegas, they are trying to make money on all points of sale. Add in the changes and you have a recipe for veteran players to drop.


Tue May 16, 2017 10:32 pm
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Some veteran players. Vocal yes, but the majority? Maybe, maybe not.


Tue May 16, 2017 11:00 pm
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Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) we're not going to know whether or not it's a big chunk of the "installed base" or not until down the road when we see (or don't see) Battlefront react to whatever the market does. Anecdotally, traffic on the FoW forum seems to be down - there was more hue and cry for this conversion than any previous version I've seen - but those observations and $0.99 will get you something off of the 99 cent menu at McDonalds... ;)

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Tue May 16, 2017 11:30 pm
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fingolfen wrote:
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) we're not going to know whether or not it's a big chunk of the "installed base" or not until down the road when we see (or don't see) Battlefront react to whatever the market does. Anecdotally, traffic on the FoW forum seems to be down - there was more hue and cry for this conversion than any previous version I've seen - but those observations and $0.99 will get you something off of the 99 cent menu at McDonalds... ;)


Traffic's down considerably here too. What, there's like 8 of us now? :D


Wed May 17, 2017 1:52 am
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On Saturday I'm definitely going to be having a chat with the store owner where I am demoing about that I won't be doing it again. I'm brand new with V4 and even totally new to the game I instantly recognized the superiority of the "North Africa and the Mediterranean" book over the current approach of incomplete books plus cards. Obviously a person running a shop wants to sell the new V4 army books and cards, so having a person doing the demos and trying to get a community going who doesn't want to go down that path at all is a bit of a conflict.


Last edited by nathan on Wed May 17, 2017 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed May 17, 2017 2:37 am
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I haven't been able to play much of anything for a while. I'm still interested. Allen nailed it. They never finished MW for V3, then they gave us V4 mid-war that looks like it just may never be completed either. I'm just not excited about it. Cards smards, just a hassle more than anything.

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Wed May 17, 2017 2:52 am
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For many that I know that have quit the game, it isn't just the changes to the rules over the years, but BFs crappy communications, shitty attitude, and belittling of their customers adding to the mix. How many more snotty Phil posts do we need, broken rules/lists that were identified in play-testing, and then the inevitable blame the messenger responses until we get tired of it. The communications and attitude towards their customer problems have been there for quite some time, and they have never been able or willing to fix it. Combine that with what I see to be a wrong turn game-wise and I understand why many want nothing to do with V4. I think that market is ready for a good competitor that can release a good casual and tournament game.

And yes Tom, my perspective is very different than yours since I'm pretty much only a tournament player. BF has been screwing with us for years.

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Wed May 17, 2017 8:19 am
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Mark wrote:
Traffic's down considerably here too. What, there's like 8 of us now? :D


Nope, nine, maybe more, I'm just usually a lurker :-)


Wed May 17, 2017 9:06 am
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Like Tom et al I'm very happy with V4 as it is in my opinion a large improvement on V3. I do see how let down some vets may feel when they compare North Africa to the new lists. I don't however understand why they don't simply use the North Africa lists with the V4 rules? We have been doing this in our club. Another club is even doing this here in NZ atm and holding a large tournament in September. Doing this gives people V4 games using a mix of their shiny new plastic and their veteran Dainahs etc. Points may not be perfect but the games will be fun I guarentee it. I don't get why people are so impatient, and butt hurt?

Yes these new card thingies a new and strange, but to gamers who have dipped a toe into mini wargaming with x-wing etc the whole card thing is going to be refreshingly familiar. When people get the new command cards in their hands and a few games under their belts, I think they will find them pleasantly useful. It is way easier mid game to hand your opponent a small card with the exact rule, rather than hunting through a army book for several minutes to find a rule or upgrade stat.

Me I think the command card packs are a great idea and are consistent with their (BF) design theme (and not tacked on as some claim). Releasing them 2+ months after the books, not such a great plan. The unit/upgrade cards system works very well in x-wing etc, yes most of them get memorized and never looked at, but it's much easier to grab the relevant card and hand it over to answer a question.

At our local club V4 has brought more games of FOW to the tables than in the past year of V3, so no dull thud here and looking forward to a brighter FOW future.


Wed May 17, 2017 9:58 am
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I've noticed the drop in traffic too. I eagerly pop on here to read stuff, and try to comment occasionally. I don't always feel I have a lot to add to these threads, so I sit back and watch the fireworks.

V4 dropped in March.
April passed
May passed

we are 1/2 way to June, and I haven't seen the upsurge in new players, painted models, NP questions I would have hoped to see on this forum were the release going as well as BF would have hoped?

Maybe it takes people a while to find their way here? I know I didn't bump into this Blog and the Podcast until later on in my career as a painter. I got into this hobby pretty late (2011 when I was in my late 20's) I get the impression most people start as kids with their dad, or played 40k as teenagers, I never did that. I like the history, and that's what pulled me in to all this 6 years ago.

I'm going to hold on to hope that new players will pop in on here soon? I also know there are a lot of readers/non-posters. And from what I've seen on the Blog Traffic, roughly the same # of folks are reading the articles as were last year.

Bill's comments aren't lost on me. If I were a tournament only player, I would have had my fill of some of BF's decisions and troubles.I'm going to keep painting models, and do still enjoy the game. But given the incomplete nature of MW, even with the command cards, I am waiting on new books before I dive into it.

All of these changes by BF are clearly not made for me. I'm not the guy who will drop another 500 dollars on models. I already have nearly everything. They want new players, and I hope they get them.


Wed May 17, 2017 1:08 pm
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The interesting bit for me is that until BF started screwing around and releasing all of the unbalanced lists with V3, I typically spent several grand a year on their models. My armies were always solely BF product, and I typically painted 2-4 completely new armies a year. I've actually re-purchased and painted US Sherman-based armies 3 times in my BF playing career. I've wanted prettier models as I became a better painter. I'm not alone in the tournament crowd. Most of the grognards and the guys that I now know in the UK did or do the same.

BFs continued screw-ups, V4 being just the most recent IMO are what have made play fewer games of FoW and have made me look for new something new. It never had anything to do with the core rules. My friends dropping from the game due to the above has a far greater impact since I always saw them at events. The high water mark for FoW from a tournament perspective in the US was 2012. They've had decreasing numbers at big events, and fewer big events ever since.


Wed May 17, 2017 1:22 pm
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Gothmog wrote:
The interesting bit for me is that until BF started screwing around and releasing all of the unbalanced lists with V3, I typically spent several grand a year on their models. My armies were always solely BF product, and I typically painted 2-4 completely new armies a year. I've actually re-purchased and painted US Sherman-based armies 3 times in my BF playing career. I've wanted prettier models as I became a better painter. I'm not alone in the tournament crowd. Most of the grognards and the guys that I now know in the UK did or do the same.

BFs continued screw-ups, V4 being just the most recent IMO are what have made play fewer games of FoW and have made me look for new something new. It never had anything to do with the core rules. My friends dropping from the game due to the above has a far greater impact since I always saw them at events. The high water mark for FoW from a tournament perspective in the US was 2012. They've had decreasing numbers at big events, and fewer big events ever since.


I probably have $2-3k in unpainted stuff I bought playing around with Easy Army.


Wed May 17, 2017 1:39 pm
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Bill - 2013... that was LW at H'CON with just over 100 players in the two day tournament...

No doubt that Fonzie jumped the shark sometime in 2012-2013!

Lots to digest up above. Lots of comments and a lot that are spot on! Candidly, between Soviet Pride and Tom, I think they are like... what... 5 people each with their prolific postings?!

My comment today is going to be this: 3 months into V3 and there was a TON of excitement! Big tournaments, the Bulge books were being released, it was a great time to be in the game. We were all happy that Brumbars and Goliaths were taken care of... we were worried or still learning about US TDs... we were excited to see an image of a Chaffee that was going to be in a soon to be released book... we were soon to be listening to Eric sing "Smoooooooooth Riiiiiiide... Take it EEEAAAASSSSYYYYY" at tournaments... it was awesome.

And now compare that to V4.

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Wed May 17, 2017 2:30 pm
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Irrefutable points Allen, but maybe BF is not as interested in comparing V4 launch to V3 launch as in comparing V4 Launch to last year of V3. We've all agreed that FoW had been long past its heyday since 2012 or 2013. Surely BF sees the results of that continued decline in diminishing sales returns as well since then. So probably they felt compelled to go forward in a whole new direction. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't but. I'm not betting on success myself even though I am enjoying V4 well enough, more so than I had enjoyed V3 lately anyway.

I suspect that getting back to that 2012/2013 zenith may be an unrealistic goal and BF would simply be happy at this point seeing the downward trend flatten out, let alone change directions. But as you know it might yet dip even further. If V4 MW does not change the sales trends as many here seem to predict, I'd predict V4 MW will be a relatively short-lived experiment and EW/LW will not get the full V4 treatment before something new (or old) is tried for V5.


Wed May 17, 2017 3:09 pm
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