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v4 - Can infantry beat tanks? 
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Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:07 pm
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After a couple of games and a lot of thinking about v4 . . .

How can infantry beat tanks?

Take a mostly-infantry force:
3 platoons infantry
Recce
Armour
2x Artillery
Anti-tank
This works as a basic list, depending on the points and era. It makes sense to me - you have an infantry company with a bit of support from battalion and division.

Send it up against an armoured list in v4. Infantry really don't want to have to run at tanks (how many MG's?), so they want to defend. The tank player would find it easier to defend than attack, so go for defence.
The rules state that you should:
a) roll to see who attacks
b) choose attack or defence, if both choose the same, roll off.
c) The side that has the most infantry formations defends
d) Use the More Missions pdf.

If the infantry attack, they lose - their artillery won't kill the armour and there's too many MG dice to assault.

So let's look at the defensive scenario. At some point, the armour will have taken some casualties - too many to risk an assualt on a big infantry platoon, but most of the AT guns will be destroyed, so the infantry have no way to kill the tanks. Yes, the infantry has tank support, but unless they're Panthers or better they have little chance of doing it.

The tank player now has the option of sitting just within the area that the infantry MUST clear to win the game - maybe the tanks can't win, but the chance of them losing is almost 0.
Breaking the tanks is almost impossible, all they have to do is to keep 2 platoons In Good Spirits, and that's not hard.
Bear in mind that it will take a while to get to this point. In a tournament there's time pressure, and at a club you have to tidy up and go home. The defender has to clear that region in a limited amount of time.

This holds for the defensive scenarios. Counterattack is even worse - with careful use of recce it's possible for the attacker to get armour onto the objective on turn 1, then the defender has to force them off!

The More Missions pdf doesn't help. Assuming that the infantry player doesn't want to attack, he chooses 'defend'. The tank player chooses 'hasty attack' or 'defend' and the mission is a mobile battle, which tends to favour the tank force.

Yes, the infantry player can redesign the list to have more tanks, but that uses more points that have to come from somewhere. I've used plenty of lists that don't have the room for more tanks.

So you take an armoured formation instead, to have a chance of winning.

I'd like to be wrong about this, does anyone have another perspective?


TL:DR - in an infantry vs armour fight the scenario rules hand too much of the initiative to the armour player, removing an infantry company as a viable army.


Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:50 pm
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Sergeant

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A balanced infantry list (ie v3 style) has no room in the v4 battlefield... infantry platoons are simply delivery systems for more proficient weapon systems such as ATG and Lught artillery... look for some examples of autoplay forces in the army list section of the forum.


Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:19 pm
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Soviet Pride wrote:
A balanced infantry list (ie v3 style) has no room in the v4 battlefield... infantry platoons are simply delivery systems for more proficient weapon systems such as ATG and Light artillery...


Soviet Motostrelkovy (Regular) , from Desperate Measures

Motostrelkovy Batalon HQ (Regular) - CinC Rifle, 2iC Rifle (25 pts)
- Komissar (15 pts)

Motostrelkovy Company (Regular) - Command SMG, 14x SMG (240 pts)
- 2x Replace SMG with Panzerfaust SMG (20 pts)

Motostrelkovy Company (Regular) - Command SMG, 7x SMG (130 pts)
- Replace SMG with Panzerfaust SMG (10 pts)

Motorised Anti-tank Company (Regular) - 4x 57mm ZIS-2 gun (145 pts)

Razvedki Platoon - Command Rifle/MG, 8x Rifle/MG, 5x M3A1 armoured transporter (205 pts)
- 5x Replace one AA MG on a M3A1 armoured transporter with a .50 cal AA MG (25 pts)
- 4x Replace SMG with Panzerfaust SMG (40 pts)

Motorised Artillery Battalion (Regular) - 12x 76mm ZIS-3 field gun (240 pts)
- Observer Rifle (15 pts) (operates as 3 x 4 gun units)

Heavy Mortar Company (Regular) - 6x 120-PM-38 mortar (140 pts)

Tank Destruction Company (Regular) - 4x 57mm ZIS-2 gun (145 pts)

Tank Destruction Company (Regular) - 4x 57mm ZIS-2 gun (145 pts)

Spetsnaz Platoon - Command SMG, 2x SMG, 2x Captured half-track (100 pts)

Anti-aircraft Platoon (Regular) - 3x ZSU M17 MGMC (Quad .50cal) (110 pts)

1750 Points

LES
PS: thank someone for PSC . :D

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Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:39 pm
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Gingerdave wrote:
After a couple of games and a lot of thinking about v4 . . .

How can infantry beat tanks?



One example.

http://www.wwpd.net/2017/03/no-retreat- ... es-of.html

Bill Wilcox basically designed the infantry force in the AAR as a force that would normally be too tough for medium armor (specifically Panzers). It did indeed beat the Panzers, bit it was close.


Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:17 pm
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That's an awful lot of guns.

Looking at the reserves rules, can you get 2 blocks of infantry and all the guns on the table?

It still doesn't solve the problem - sure, the armour will take losses relatively quickly, but when they've had enough they can pull back to fight at long range. Then they shove some light units forward into the area that the infantry MUST clear to win, and play for time. If you send the guns out to hunt tanks, they can be dealt with by main gun and artillery fire.

If the attacker is really lucky with terrain, there will be a wood or a hill to hide behind!


That AAR does count - but I would say that they forgot about sneaking someone across the centre line, which caused trouble later in the game, and that it took 3 hours. Most tournaments time out at 2.5 hours.


Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:39 pm
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Gingerdave wrote:
That's an awful lot of guns.


Yeah , i was looking at http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/i ... cts_id=467 and just thinking what I could do with 2 . :roll:

LES

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Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:09 pm
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Lap, good list... but katys give you now better performance than 120mm mortars.

If you want to hunt ┬źnon attacking tanks┬╗ use tip3m sturmoviks... you cannot hide from them and are a must have for any LW soviet list.

Both the forces in that AAR are hardly fitted for v4. So hard to take conclusion out of the battle.


Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:36 pm
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Both forces were suggested by Bill. I did tweak them a bit though given some of the new information we had about V4 since he posted them but felt an obligation to keep it mostly the same. Will get to the forces specifically designed for V4 when we can. Also doing some general MW V4 and other gaming. Played Armada last weekend.

The most important conclusion from that game though remains valid. Two guys had a good time playing V4. That's totally achievable.

Now of course your response will be that those list will not fun in V4 LW tournaments, so you will want to try to invalidate that. You might very well be correct. Ed Forbe's lists in the BF forum is a true brute. I'm thinking totally unbalanced. That being said, my next LW V4 event will likely be LW West Front at Historicon Doubles. No Sthurmovicks there I think. It's too bad as I could run Ed's lists and would like to if Sthurmovicks were a bit more reasonable and not make me "that guy."


Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:02 pm
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No! Be that guy!

Said the guy that has been that guy before...

Allen

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Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:38 pm
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Is this one of those things where we all have to copy Ed's list to prove a point?

Where's McMann when you need him? This is has his name all over it! :) But I'd have to loan him all the models for it!


Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:05 pm
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Is this one of those things where we all have to copy Ed's list to prove a point?



Ed would add 24 M3A1 SCs with .50 cals as well , some how ! :D

LES

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Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:20 am
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I had a platoon of panzergren vets dug in and gone to ground on an objective inside of a wood. My opponent threw in 3 tank platoons over the course of the game and all 3 were pushed back and lost tanks to bogging down while retreating. The removal of tank terror is pretty huge and the infantry will get far more swings in than the tanks ever will.

Can infantry reliably take on tanks? Probably not but they should be able to drive them back enough to push onto objectives.


Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:11 pm
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Inf is also massively mobile. 12 inch dash plus follow me or 8 inch tactical, follow me and assault. That's 16 inches! You can't be sitting there you have to push forward even as an active defence. Games like hold the line can't be won by just sitting there and holding the obj (oddly).

US inf is still good though

1750 2ID CV

HQ
2 X full inf
3 X 57mm guns
3 X 57mm guns
4 X 105 cannons
3 X calliope (pie plate starting ranged in...yes pls!)
4 X hellcats which gives me a recce security pltn as well
Short armoured rifles
4 X TTD

That's 11 gun teams
4 fast AT13 guns
4 core pltns for morale (plus HQ pltn)
2 templates inc a pie plate to win the arty dual
3 pltns of inf

This army is fully capable of attacking or engaging medium armour.


Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:04 am
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Yes, infantry is very mobile. They can jump out of their foxholes and assault the armour in the same turn, even if it's a fair distance away.

But.

Assume that the armoured attacker starts with 14 tanks (entirely possible with CV at 1750 LW). After halfway through the game, half the tanks and most of the guns have been destroyed.

The tanks pull back, leaving one tank close enough to keep the game going (within 16" of the objective). Several others within 8" of that for defensive fire.

The infantry assault, loose a stand or two to defensive fire. If they're driven back, the armour stays where it is and shoots them some more. If they make it in, maybe they kill 1 tank. The others break off and do the whole thing again on the other side of the board!


Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:31 pm
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96mgb wrote:
Inf is also massively mobile. 12 inch dash plus follow me or 8 inch tactical, follow me and assault. That's 16 inches! You can't be sitting there you have to push forward even as an active defence. Games like hold the line can't be won by just sitting there and holding the obj (oddly).

US inf is still good though

1750 2ID CV

HQ
2 X full inf
3 X 57mm guns
3 X 57mm guns
4 X 105 cannons
3 X calliope (pie plate starting ranged in...yes pls!)
4 X hellcats which gives me a recce security pltn as well
Short armoured rifles
4 X TTD

That's 11 gun teams
4 fast AT13 guns
4 core pltns for morale (plus HQ pltn)
2 templates inc a pie plate to win the arty dual
3 pltns of inf

This army is fully capable of attacking or engaging medium armour.


I would take the fourth calliope and an AOP to spot for them, turn the 105mm into light howitzers and you probably get enough points.


Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:58 pm
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I do not think players are truly taking the 3+ med gun save into account when writing off inf forces.

Inf forces with presonal AT rockets backed with med ATG guns shread med armor. If I had to move to the Western Frount, my lists would be inf lists.

I would use my ATG's vs med armor aggressively. Mount them up on tracks or unarmored trucks and move them forward to close range. They either dismount in movement or dismount by having the truck destroyed, and I do not really care which. I would ride that 3+ Gun save unmercifully .

The new vp stress "wins", more than losses, so damm the losses, FORWARD ! :-)


Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:36 pm
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lap1964 wrote:
Iron-Tom wrote:
Is this one of those things where we all have to copy Ed's list to prove a point?



Ed would add 24 M3A1 SCs with .50 cals as well , some how ! :D

LES


25, not 24

Posted By Ed Forbes on 16 Mar 2017 03:12 PM
Ok, I will play

DM Guards Moto
HQ
1 plt inf w/1 Pz. (8)
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
Art bat w/ obs 13 transports w/50cal, 12 ZiS-3 ( in 3 units )

DM Guards Moto
HQ
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
Art bat w/12 transports w/50cal, 12 ZiS-3 ( in 3 units )
Priority IL-2M Tip 3M

Only 1 Support (Strums)
No FA over 1
25 armored transports w/50 cal ( NOT passenger fired )
24 ZiS-3
13 units
1720


Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:41 pm
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EdForbes wrote:


25, not 24

Posted By Ed Forbes on 16 Mar 2017 03:12 PM
Ok, I will play

DM Guards Moto
HQ
1 plt inf w/1 Pz. (8)
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
Art bat w/ obs 13 transports w/50cal, 12 ZiS-3 ( in 3 units )

DM Guards Moto
HQ
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
Art bat w/12 transports w/50cal, 12 ZiS-3 ( in 3 units )
Priority IL-2M Tip 3M

Only 1 Support (Strums)
No FA over 1
25 armored transports w/50 cal ( NOT passenger fired )
24 ZiS-3
13 units
1720

You don't get a com team for the Artillery Bat in V4. :)

LES

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We stand at the gates of Berlin With two and a half million men With six thousand tanks in our ranks


Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:13 am
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lap1964 wrote:
EdForbes wrote:


25, not 24

Posted By Ed Forbes on 16 Mar 2017 03:12 PM
Ok, I will play

DM Guards Moto
HQ
1 plt inf w/1 Pz. (8)
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
Art bat w/ obs 13 transports w/50cal, 12 ZiS-3 ( in 3 units )

DM Guards Moto
HQ
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
1 plt inf w/1 Pz (8)
Art bat w/12 transports w/50cal, 12 ZiS-3 ( in 3 units )
Priority IL-2M Tip 3M

Only 1 Support (Strums)
No FA over 1
25 armored transports w/50 cal ( NOT passenger fired )
24 ZiS-3
13 units
1720

You don't get a com team for the Artillery Bat in V4. :)

LES


Observer, not Kom, for the 13th M3A1, making 25 total


Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:41 am
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