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Building a better German Tournament List 
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Sergeant
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So...

I was cruising through my Facebook Feed's "On this Day" list and found a link to this older piece from Bill Wilcox about tournament lists.

Interesting stuff there:

Quote:
For me, a good tournament list is one that can handle the greatest number of opposing armies, in any scenario, and on any board. It has ways to deal with the greatest number of enemies, while minimizing or masking its own weaknesses. A good tournament list must be able to defend as well as attack: sitting and waiting for the other guy to make mistakes or hoping that they will break their army on your defenses doesn't always work. Knowing how to win in both Encounter and in Breakthrough (and in every other scenario) is equally important. German armies have problems achieving the above in V3.


and:

Quote:
What it does say is that German lists have more to overcome than many comparable Allied lists. For example, German infantry platoons lack numbers, and even if they are all machine gunned and fausted up, they still have the same 3+ save as everybody else. You pay a points premium for those teams, and the platoon’s capability decreases with losses faster than that of a comparable US infantry platoon that loses a rifle or bazooka team. Armored companies face the same challenges; German tanks are great, but they are very expensive, and their traditional high FA has been mitigated by speed and higher Allied AT.


My question: Take a read of Bill's old article about V3 tourney building, and see how it holds true - or not today? What are your thoughts about this in the new V4 Late War era?

(I don't have an answer... just curious to see what others have found...)

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Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:56 pm
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Interesting question. I also don't know the answer but I do know that I'm playing a German force in my next LW V4 Tournament, 02DEC17 in Indianapolis, and I'm not terribly worried about it. I'm sure I'll do about as well as I ever did with Germans in V3 or V2.

It may be that Germans got a bit of a boost over Bill's relatively low V3 German assessment. Veteran units with potential for two move orders a turn seems to be a pretty decent boost for them. Nebelwerfers seem even better now with a 3+ save and better FP still at a low cost. Artillery being weaker on AT could encourage more Panzer usage, when was the last time you saw a LW Panther in V3?

I'll let you know how DEC 2nd goes.


Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:01 pm
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Nebs are rockets do don’t get AT boost since KFTF nerfed them.


Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:05 pm
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Iron-Tom wrote:
...when was the last time you saw a LW Panther in V3?

I'll let you know how DEC 2nd goes.


Hmmmm...

Saw a bunch of CT ones run down my Brit's throats in MW under V3... just didn't have anything to take them on with. They blasted my Grants and Stuarts, then came over, stayed out of assault range and chewed up the infantry.

As for when I saw them in V4... well, I ran them and wrote about it on WWPD. You can never have enough Panthers... (whether they do any good is another issue)

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Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:24 pm
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The question was "when was the last time you saw a LW Panther in V3?"


Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:40 pm
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Whenever I played against Malcolm (and he ran Germans).

He's the one who taught me the adage: "You can NEVER have enough PANTHERS..."

For the record, he still uses them in V4

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Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 am
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I'll just say from the many, many V3 tournaments, many of them major events, I've attended over the years, Panthers have been almost completely missing. LW V3 Heavy artillery sitzkrieg made them risky to take.

I do think, and have said here before, that V4 might give Panthers a bit more reasons to be fielded than we saw in V3. The reduced effect of artillery on tanks in V4, the fact that Panthers have the enough frontal armor to stand up to the most common ATGs, and the Stormtrooper (two move order potential) has me a bit more encourage to try them again in LW. Last time I used them in LW was V2. I always thought it was a shame that one of the most common Panzers in LW was seldom seen in V3 LW and I'm hoping V4 LW might see some of them come back out.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:31 pm
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Panther hate took over the design group back in early V2 and they still haven’t gotten over it.

Don’t plan on it becoming viable. Ever.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:51 pm
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I'm up to 11 Panthers in the fleet (one yet to be painted)

"You can never have enough Panthers!" Malcolm Hee

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Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:29 pm
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UndergroundWarren wrote:
Panther hate took over the design group back in early V2 and they still haven’t gotten over it.

Don’t plan on it becoming viable. Ever.


Why do you say that? Points and Stats of Panther from V2 to V3 seem pretty consistent.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:26 pm
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Troy wrote:
I'm up to 11 Panthers in the fleet (one yet to be painted)

"You can never have enough Panthers!" Malcolm Hee


Is Malcolm some ace player from the West Coast I don't know about? I would disagree with him on Panthers when it came to them LW under V3. In LW V4 I'm willing to give them another try. Though I'm not sure in regards to your OP that they will automatically make a better "Tournament" list. I am not planning to use them at my next LW V4 tournament tough I will be playing Germans.


Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:35 pm
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Panthers are the reason you will tend to always see SU100's in my lists. Overkill vs Stugs, but needed insurance


Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:00 am
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Troy wrote:
I'm up to 11 Panthers in the fleet (one yet to be painted)

"You can never have enough Panthers!" Malcolm Hee


Is Malcolm some ace player from the West Coast I don't know about? I would disagree with him on Panthers when it came to them LW under V3. In LW V4 I'm willing to give them another try. Though I'm not sure in regards to your OP that they will automatically make a better "Tournament" list. I am not planning to use them at my next LW V4 tournament tough I will be playing Germans.


Better yet... he's a player who makes the game fun to play. Much more preferable than an "Ace" player in the tourney settings.

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Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:50 am
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That’s awesome! We are all lucky to have such friends, but great player attitude does not have a lot to bear on list effectiveness. That is what your OP is about is it not?


Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:59 am
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Perhaps the old lists failed because they...


Didn’t have enough Panthers.


I’ll leave it to the reader to decide WHY BF pointed them the way the did

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Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:21 am
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Clearly if they were cheaper, Panthers would be more cost effective. Goes about the same for anything eh? Though the current V4 points for Panthers is the same as it was in V3, at least Panthers are less vulnerable now in V4 to one of their primary threats in V3, artillery.

Hopefully your good buddy will get better use out of his in V4....espeiacll when he plays Ed! :)


Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:47 am
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Iron-Tom wrote:
UndergroundWarren wrote:
Panther hate took over the design group back in early V2 and they still haven’t gotten over it.

Don’t plan on it becoming viable. Ever.


Why do you say that? Points and Stats of Panther from V2 to V3 seem pretty consistent.



In early V2 the only way to dependably kill a panther was a side shot. Very little over AT 12 systems existed. The points were very close to correct.

By late V3, by which time many, many things had seen point changes, Panthers were no longer a near apex predator. Tons of AT 13 and above was around. Arty was bigger, badder, and full of special rules. DF smoke was overly effective as well. Panther stayed at same points. Ridiculous.


Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:09 am
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So you think all those changes were specifically due to designer hate of Panthers? I can agree to the assessmen that V3 made life harder on Panthers, that’s what I’ve been saying across this thread. I’m just not so convinced that it was all about deleiberate Panther nerf. But at least V4 mitigated one of those V3 issues for Panthers.


Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:37 am
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There were plenty of comments on the forums in support of such a nerf, but I won’t accuse Phil of that. He didn’t really want hot ammo after all. It was the hate that prevented any sort correction.


Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:01 pm
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Yeah we kinda have to remember this time last year and prior, there was this giant clamouring about Codex Creep and too many special rules.
Then we got MW.

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Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:04 am
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There was a lot of noise about special rules, but the reasonable complaints were that there were too many (often collected into a single force), and that they were not pointed. No one played a vanilla unit because you could get very powerful special abilities for zero point increase.

Now we get command cards with barely pointed specials, and everything is vanilla. It’s kind of like someone complaining their food is too spicy, so the chef serves them cardboard.


Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:57 pm
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