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M5 Stuart/Economics of new rules and plastics/V4 angst 
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Captain
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Troy wrote:

That doesn't mean those lists won't be tougher to play against. With the "loss of granularity" ;) in the points, it will be interesting to see if these are under or over priced, especially once the "optional" command cards are figured into the mix. they've lost a lot of their fine balance in pointing under the "100-point" system


So we do have the same view of "Codex Creep" i..e. that means later books/lists tend to be stronger than earlier ones? It seemed like you were trying to give it a different definition.

So far the MW V4 Tournaments I've been in, three of them now, have been the most balanced FoW tournaments I've participated in. The last two of them used Command Cards. Their inclusion in the 2nd and 3rd event really did not change the overall dynamics and balance from the 1st. Overall results have been very balanced, perhaps that's more important that each point of kit bring perfectly balanced to some other price of kit at the micro level?


Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:58 am
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Not a really.

There are multiple ways for codex creep to occur:

1. Meta creep in how the army plays vs it's point's base.
2. Meta creep in new specials (abilities, rules, equipment) that previous books don't have (Shermans?) comparable access to.
3. Deeper list options (this will probably be the case with 1st 2 Fight compared to the other two MW books??? - I haven't seen it yet, just going off what has been reported).

There are probably other ways for codex creep to occur, but all of those are possible with codex creep. I believe you're limiting the term to just option #1??


Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:40 pm
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It's all about number one, imo. Number one is generally only an issue if it also falls under number one. Of course, give guy's enough special rules, and they will eventually break the game. No designer is smart enough to figure out all the synergies.


Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:34 pm
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Btw, if history is any guide, hit on two will not give you enough mass to justify the point reduction unless it's stuff that saves on a 3 plus.


Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:36 pm
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UndergroundWarren wrote:
Btw, if history is any guide, hit on two will not give you enough mass to justify the point reduction unless it's stuff that saves on a 3 plus.


Agree. Conscript tanks worked for Soviets because you could get 10 in a platoon. I don't see it working very well for US tank units of 5 or less.

Now someone will probably jump in and say command cards will make them 3+ to hit. But damn, that's just not how I thought this game would go. Oh well.

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Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:17 pm
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"codex creep" doesn't mean every unit in that new book is ultra-mega. I'll leave judgement until a number of games have been played but I'd guess at the M4/Sherman and the large Rifle unit as being the "creep" part of the new codex.

Of course a large number of hulls even ones easy to hit can still overwhelm a smaller (and hence less shots) unit, certainly with the morale rules needing any tank platoon to be under that magic 2 and not 50%.

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Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:25 pm
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Troy wrote:
Not a really.

There are multiple ways for codex creep to occur:

1. Meta creep in how the army plays vs it's point's base.
2. Meta creep in new specials (abilities, rules, equipment) that previous books don't have (Shermans?) comparable access to.
3. Deeper list options (this will probably be the case with 1st 2 Fight compared to the other two MW books??? - I haven't seen it yet, just going off what has been reported).

There are probably other ways for codex creep to occur, but all of those are possible with codex creep. I believe you're limiting the term to just option #1??


Yes. The key issue is #1, the other two are mostly only important to the extent that they contribute to #1.

If a new book gave one side three times the amount of options of previous books but all of them were much worse options to actually play than what was in previous books, you would not see cries of "codex creep" from the masses. Most of the previous book players would just be happy to have new weaker opponents to beat up on.


Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:01 am
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Iron-Tom wrote:

Yes. The key issue is #1, the other two are mostly only important to the extent that they contribute to #1.

If a new book gave one side three times the amount of options of previous books but all of them were much worse options to actually play than what was in previous books, you would not see cries of "codex creep" from the masses. Most of the previous book players would just be happy to have new weaker opponents to beat up on.


So the only way for Codex Creep to occur with the American MW book is for the US to be as good as the Brits and Germans ... ?? Since, even BF knows that the Americans in MW Desert showed up as green troops when the Brits and Germans had been there long enough to get veteran status...

Unless of course, they did something silly like make the Brits run away at the drop of hat... say, like needing a 5+ on unit last stand tests... or made their tanks with a special ability like... say Tally Ho have the same tactics rating as Green troops.

Whew! glad those Green American's will be worse than Brit Veterans.


Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:31 am
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Not "as good," the US must have "better" forces. For Codex Creep to occur, the new US Lists will have to be significantly advantaged over previous lists, in this case the British and the Germans. The US will lists will have to win noticeably more, making players of German and British list complain about how it's not balanced/fair that the US list are so much easier to win with.

If US lists win on about the same frequency as lists from the previous two books, then balance is maintained and Codex Creep has not occurred.

Those "Green Americans" could be a more effective force to play than those "veteran British and Germans" if they are undercosted. It remains to be seen if this will be the case, but many seem to have already made the call. All I was saying was in my post well above is that M3 Stuart's being hit on a 2+ and low US skill ratings are not likely indicators of Codex Creep. But they could be if the new units are undercosted or create other synergies that make the US lists win more than the previous British and German lists.


Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:00 am
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... wait a bit Tom, those Stuarts could be hitting on a 3+ or even on a 4+ after the american "command cards" hit the tables... same for the skill ratings of the rest of US forces... remember that now the books are simply a teaser, for making a complete review of the product you need to know about the upcomming cards.


Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:38 am
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Yes, we'll need to see the full eventual lists, including Command Cards, to make an accurate complete assessment of potential V4 MW Codex Creep. Although the impact of the cards will only matter for events that choose to allow them, so there is still some reason to look at the books separate of the cards. Especially so because IF it is the cards that in fact induce the Codex Creep, then TOs might be able to maintain balance by not allowing them at their events.


Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:47 pm
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Yes, we'll need to see the full eventual lists, including Command Cards, to make an accurate complete assessment of potential V4 MW Codex Creep. Although the impact of the cards will only matter for events that choose to allow them, so there is still some reason to look at the books separate of the cards. Especially so because IF it is the cards that in fact induce the Codex Creep, then TOs might be able to maintain balance by not allowing them at their events.


I haven't seen any events not allowed Command Cards up til now. (There were probably a few)... Anyone have a list of which ones in recent times haven't allowed them?


Last edited by Troy on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:30 pm
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Only two V4 MW events have occurred since the release of command cards. Both allowed them. We'll see what future events do or don't do.


Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:32 pm
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36" range on M10's is creepy. I'm very inclined to choose them for a force.

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Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:14 pm
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Only two V4 MW events have occurred since the release of command cards. Both allowed them. We'll see what future events do or don't do.


With the shallowness of the Brit and German MW books, I really doubt you'll see MW tourneys skipping the cards. BF created the new system to make them as Non-optional as possible.


Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:18 pm
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Reguarding hitting 2+ on the Stuart, I would take hits at 2+ in groups of 5 over hits at 3+ in groups of 3.

My experience with v4 Stuarts saw Brit Stuarts generally taking 2 hits in a round of fire, which causes a morale check. They would need to take 4 hits in a unit of 5 to take a test. The larger unit gives me an additional turn to achieve something, which I will take as a plus.

For 2 units of 3 (6 models), 4 hits (2 each unit) puts 6 at risk. For 1 unit of 5 cheeper models, 4 hits puts 5 at risk. Cost / Benefit is on the plus side for me taking the US Stuarts being hit on 2+ in groups of 5 over Stuarts in groups of 3 hit at 3+.


Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:44 pm
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By paying 1 single point a card gives all your British Stuarts and Crusaders a hit on a 4+, so I bet you arent going to see that many "non-scouting" honeys.


Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:30 am
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Yes, on the surface level, the Scout Tanks card seems like a no brainer. I ran my Crusaders with it (in one tournament) and without (twice in tournaments). I did better both times without it. This was the also the general case at the US MW Nationals where British light tank players without the card averaged better overall scores than the players who took it. Weird right? How can that be?

What I have found from my own games with it is Scout Tanks basically makes your small frail platoons, that were easy for Panzers to take out even with a bad volley, now taken out by Panzers with an average roll. The problem here is that "on average," the Panzers still get average volleys in which is more than sufficient. So the card might help buy a little more time for the Honey or Stuart platoon to stay on the table, but the problem now is that the Honeys and Crusaders now move slower and need more turns to get around the Panzers' flanks, if they ever do at all.

What I'm finding from my German Panzer opponents is that they have learnt, like I predicted they would, to use Blitz and Shoot/Scoot more to back up than to advance in order to keep the light tanks off their flanks longer. Taking this British card really helps play into that German strategy. Even basic Panzer III shorts have fairly safe so long as they keep the light British tanks from getting around their sides. I can think of several cases where a single Panzer unit held off and eventually broke as many as three of Crusader troops.

Its still early days in "V4 meta," so how knows, maybe this will become a universally taken card by Honey and Crusader players, but even if it is, don't expect them to do a whole lot better than they did without.

I think you're right though, many will take the Scout Tank Card, thinking its this amazing thing, But like me they eventually may see that its not that amazing and if they can't get on the Panzers' flanks, a couple of less hits here and there are not really going to matter if you can't flank them. Perhaps the card should have been zero point rather than a token one point. The problem with that token one point is that is hide the true cost of the card that may take some players, like me, some blood and sweat to figure out.


Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:41 am
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EdForbes wrote:
The larger unit gives me an additional turn to achieve something, which I will take as a plus.

Having a few extra gun tubes, even for just a turn or two more, can't hurt either!


Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:43 am
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Pardon my ignorance of US MW history, but since Fighting First is Pre-Kasserine Pass, doesn't it therefore make SENSE that the only Stuarts are M3s? Also, I wonder of with the US Plastic Priest kits we will see British Cards?

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Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:06 pm
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Matt Varnish wrote:
Pardon my ignorance of US MW history, but since Fighting First is Pre-Kasserine Pass, doesn't it therefore make SENSE that the only Stuarts are M3s? Also, I wonder of with the US Plastic Priest kits we will see British Cards?


You won't see Brit Cards for anything in the US book until BF decides to release a 2nd British book.

So far, I've heard a lot of "assuming" they will do so (did Pete S say anything about it?)... but no definitive dates for such. My prediction is that Brits in MW will continue to be the underdog for quite a while in Team Patton


Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:25 pm
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Iron-Tom wrote:
Yes, on the surface level, the Scout Tanks card seems like a no brainer. I ran my Crusaders with it (in one tournament) and without (twice in tournaments). I did better both times without it. This was the also the general case at the US MW Nationals where British light tank players without the card averaged better overall scores than the players who took it. Weird right? How can that be?

What I have found from my own games with it is Scout Tanks basically makes your small frail platoons, that were easy for Panzers to take out even with a bad volley, now taken out by Panzers with an average roll. The problem here is that "on average," the Panzers still get average volleys in which is more than sufficient. So the card might help buy a little more time for the Honey or Stuart platoon to stay on the table, but the problem now is that the Honeys and Crusaders now move slower and need more turns to get around the Panzers' flanks, if they ever do at all.

What I'm finding from my German Panzer opponents is that they have learnt, like I predicted they would, to use Blitz and Shoot/Scoot more to back up than to advance in order to keep the light tanks off their flanks longer. Taking this British card really helps play into that German strategy. Even basic Panzer III shorts have fairly safe so long as they keep the light British tanks from getting around their sides. I can think of several cases where a single Panzer unit held off and eventually broke as many as three of Crusader troops.

Its still early days in "V4 meta," so how knows, maybe this will become a universally taken card by Honey and Crusader players, but even if it is, don't expect them to do a whole lot better than they did without.

I think you're right though, many will take the Scout Tank Card, thinking its this amazing thing, But like me they eventually may see that its not that amazing and if they can't get on the Panzers' flanks, a couple of less hits here and there are not really going to matter if you can't flank them. Perhaps the card should have been zero point rather than a token one point. The problem with that token one point is that is hide the true cost of the card that may take some players, like me, some blood and sweat to figure out.


Instead of chickening out and trying to play like the Boche with tanks that just don't cut it in a head-to-head duel, my Brits are experimenting with the "Cavalry Commander" card put on multiple units.

Having a 14" move, and then possibly being able to shoot after a further 4" "Follow Me" on a 3+ presents a hard-to-ignore threat. The idea will be to get into position behind a 25 pounder smoke screen on T1.


Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:34 pm
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I always figured smoke screens would be key for Honeys/Crusaders. I think I mentioned that in one of my posted AARs.

I've not considered the Cavalry Commander Card yet. Sounds like you have a plan. I'll be interested to hear how it plays out. My German opponents seem to have got real good and denying their flanks. This may help a lot!


Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:00 pm
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