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webgriffin wrote:

As for V5... stop it. Earliest would be 2023. Earliest. Any other talk is just crazy talk....


I think it could be earlier IF "finishes" all of the MW V4 Redo before they move on to EW or LW. That might provide a clean break point. But if they start updating EW and/or LW concurrently with MW then your 2023 estimate might way too early! :(

webgriffin wrote:

TY will continue to be a success. A huge success. So much so that if you want to keep FoW V3 players engaged in BF, move to TY! There will continue to be some goodness coming out of that system! ...


I'm very happy to see this. I originally was going to skip TY altogether. Even though I think FoW will remain my main game, TY is certainty doing its best to catch up and I'm glad I got into it. I'll even play TY in multiple scales! :o I Have another ass whooping by British Milan-Infantry coming up again tomorrow!


Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:10 am
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As usually Tom, a very long post were you seem to adress my post but actually ignore it...

First of all, Im not asking for a BF delegate to apologise for their handling of V4... thats what they actually did last saturday... they did it because wih V4 there has been a big back clash by the community... something that didnt happen with V3 which was accepted without any major problem.

Second, I have nothing against people playing V4... thats only in your mind... Im against BF getting lazy and delivering a subpar product with bare bones lists, faceless infantry and wrongly measured play mats.

Thirdly the fact you refer to V3 in a paternalistic manner as an edition of «teleporting TD, artillery parks and slitzkreig» shows your absolute ignorance of the subject.

Your so called V4 manouver edition only creates an epidemic of draws (something that was pointed out by the critics from day one) to the point that six months after release BF is being forced to redo the victory conditions to make the game playable.


Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:12 am
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Soviet Pride wrote:
First of all, Im not asking for a BF delegate to apologise for their handling of V4... thats what they actually did last saturday......

Ah...now you are saying it clearly. The ETC particpants got an apology from BF. Interesting. I’m sure the folks that are bothering to keep up with this thread would like to know more details on what was said, and perhaps more imorantly what it means going forward for FoW. Some might even be interetesd in what the apology meant to you and what affect it will have on your attitude going forward. Also, what decision has been made for the ETC next year? If it's V4 I might try to attend.

Soviet Pride wrote:
Second, I have nothing against people playing V4... thats only in your mind...

Really? That’s not the impression your posts here give. If you don’t have anything against people playing and enjoying V4, then really one might think that you should have nothing against BF for providing V4 to them. Even the occasional observer on this forum could be forgiven for having the impression that you are on a very active personal campaign here to discredit both BF and V4.

Soviet Pride wrote:
Im against BF getting lazy and delivering a subpar product with bare bones lists, faceless infantry and wrongly measured play mats.
.

I think to support the claim of “lazy” you’d have to have a lot more insights on the workload and daily schedule in the BF studio. It might be that the BF staff is working even harder than ever these days.

As an example, I came across this post from yesterday on the BF forums: http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx ... &afv=topic The "it" they are referring to is historical article/scenario submissions for the BF web site weekly updates. I've trimmed it down to the parts relevant to this discussion.

Quote:
Posted By ras on 12 Aug 2017 02:16 PM
In my opinion saying "giving it to the BF guys" is not a good way to get what sounds like a very nice piece of work out to a wider bunch of people. I have been in the BF studio here in NZ a couple of times. They were working flat out the whole time I have been there. Peter is a real driver of staff, and that's why BF continues to be owned by himself, BF makes money.


The new flexible plastic infantry have their pros and cons. You are correct that poor facial detail is chief among the cons. But that does that mean they are devoid of value and might not be a good option for some players. The market will ultiamtely determine if they have a place in the FoW gaming community or not. I will say that I am happy to see BF experiment with new materials and new techiques. I recall that the first plastic tanks BF did were considered by many to be “subpar.” But thank goodness BF did not give up on plastics based off the initail negative feedback or we would not have some of the fantastic BF plastic models we have today! This just might be an early developmental step in what ultimately might be a great product.

The game mats issue certaily was not a result of laziness. It was a result of rushing to come through with a second vendor when the first one failed. I imagine that took a lot of effort and hustle by BF to try to coordinate the second vendor, but alas it would have been much better to just cancel or signifacntly delay the project. I note though that BF has taken responsibility for the poor standards on sizing of the mats and is refunding dissatisfied customers . BF generally owns up to its mistakes.

Soviet Pride wrote:
Thirdly the fact you refer to V3 in a paternalistic manner as an edition of «teleporting TD, artillery parks and slitzkreig» shows your absolute ignorance of the subject.


"Absolute ignorance?" That’s rather ungentlemanly and some migt even view it as crossing the line on rule #1. Should I? I'll forgive it, however I think I might be well aqauinted with the pros and cons of V3 having been a playtester for it and a long time player of it, semi-serious V3 tournamnet player, and discussing it on the fourm years and years. Would a 1000+ games played of V3 played by me a conservative estimate? Certainly hunderds and hundreds at a minimum. Are those items I listed not common complaints about V3? I know I heard a lot of complaints about them. I’m just pointing out that V3 has its problems too. A much longer list could be generated, just as it could for V4.

Soviet Pride wrote:
Your so called V4 manouver edition only creates an epidemic of draws (something that was pointed out by the critics from day one) to the point that six months after release BF is being forced to redo the victory conditions to make the game playable.


I think we all would like to see less draw results, but an “epidemc” does not seem to be underway. I’ve played in six V4 tournaments thus far. Those tournaments totalling 179 games. 66 of those have been draws, 37%. It’s certainly fair to say that’s more than V3 had, which still had many draw results in the fair fights. Clearly 37% is more than we’d all like to see, but “epidemic” not really.

In all six of those V4 tournaments the final rankings still got sorted out. Players had plenty of fun opportunity to show their ability. I’m also noting that as players get more comfortable and capable with V4, the number of draw results seems to be going down. My last V4 tournament only had 1 draw of 24 games. From my observations, the better players (or maybe just those that play V4 more) are getting less draw results than the general population as they seem to be figuring more quickly what it takes to win in V4. Perhaps the V4 playtesters had insufficient time to get to that level of understanding. It took me months and months and a few tournaments to see how I needed to change my mindset in V4 defensives battles.

I’m not sure the draws percentages in V4 (guess you could add in TY also) is as big of a deal as its being made out to be. But nontheless, I’m encouarged to see BF willing address the “More Missions PDF” to see if this aspect of V4 (hopefully TY also) can be improved upon. I really wish BF would take Fog of War cards to the next step and make something from that that is more usable in competitive events.

And Jorge...you never answered my question about how you enjoyed the ETC this year? I imagine having it in your home country was very special for the Spanish FoW community. I do hope it lived up to your expectations. I'd be especially eager to hear about any games you had with the US team.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:15 pm
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The BF delegate express his deep concerns about the way V4 has been marketed, and ask the ETC community to give it a try and asure everybody that BF will hear the players feedback and ammend V4 ASAP... it sounded as an apology to me.

Regarding next years ETC a formal vote is pending.

I repeat, I have nothing against V4 players... if anyone has that impression it might be because every single world I say in this forum is quoted (and distorted) by Iron Tom... so its seen under more polemic lenses that how ir was intended.

If I speak of lazyness on part of BF staff is because I can see the deep diminishment in the time used to deliver their products as time goes by. BTW my source in BF was in a meeting were it was decided to cut to half the number of FOW references with V4, so when I speak of a mutilation of the game Im not inventing or exagerating anything.

I repeat, describing V3 as a game of teleporting TDs, arty parks and slitzkreig is not only partial (its almost a slander) its show a complete lack of knowledge on the matter (no one that still loves and play V3, plays it that way). If you invoque the «dont be a dick» clause, please dont start with such provocations.

Also, draw sickness must be a problem with V4 because BF is adressing the issue with urgency. This is not an opinion, its a fact.

Even BF staff is recognising their own mistakes with the V4 rushed launch... hopefully they can ammend things and give the community back a quality product.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:41 pm
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Soviet Pride wrote:
The BF delegate express his deep concerns about the way V4 has been marketed, and ask the ETC community to give it a try and asure everybody that BF will hear the players feedback and ammend V4 ASAP... it sounded as an apology to me.


Thank you for the follow up. “Sounded as an apology” and an actual apology might be two different things, especially when one enters possible language barriers into the equation. Nonetheless I assume you are mostly correct that BF was trying to provide at least “an explanation” if not a true apology for their corporate decisions. I also appreciate your honesty. I expect what was given by BF at the ETC was fairly similar to what Pete, JM, and JM did at Historicon. Basic PR campaign stuff I think that we can expect was coordinated messaging.

The question now is to what degree did it have any impact? Do you care that they tried to explain themselves and do you understand (that does not mean agree with) their decisions any better now? Or was it just wasted effort in your opinion?

Soviet Pride wrote:
Regarding next years ETC a formal vote is pending.


Well whatever is chosen I hope it remains a high quality event, after all it the players more than the rules that make the event what it is I imagine. I fancy that we might meet at one and share a beer, even if that ends up having to wait till V5 when we can both be more in sync with a common rules version…hopefully.

Soviet Pride wrote:
I repeat, I have nothing against V4 players...


That’s great to hear Jorge! But to be clear, does that also apply to BF for providing V4 to those who are enjoying V4? Because you do seem to have quite bit of personal issue with BF moving forward even tough you have been adamant that your local community is doing just fine continuing with V3. Maybe I’ve got that wrong too. I hope I do. I just want to remove any of my supposition and let you state with your own words what you think.


Soviet Pride wrote:
if anyone has that impression it might be because every single world I say in this forum is quoted (and distorted) by Iron Tom... so its seen under more polemic lenses that how ir was intended.


I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. I’ve not even commented on every post you’ve made, let alone every single word. In quite a few cases you’ll notice that I’ve agreed with your premise at least, if not your pitch. I suppose I should cut you some more slack as I’m not really altogether sure you understand the exact conations of a lot of what you post. I’d attribute that to language translation issues though rather than deliberately insult your intelligence. I wish my Spanish skills were equal to your English skills; maybe we could get to common ground quicker if we had communications in both channels.

Soviet Pride wrote:
If I speak of lazyness on part of BF staff is because I can see the deep diminishment in the time used to deliver their products as time goes by. BTW my source in BF was in a meeting were it was decided to cut to half the number of FOW references with V4, so when I speak of a mutilation of the game Im not inventing or exagerating anything.


I don’t think you are "inventing facts," but you are definitely making the wrong conclusion from this one and then trying to propagate it as condemnation of BF. You make the claim that you BF source has said BF intends to cut down FoW references (I assume you/he mean army books) by half. That’s believable! No contesting of that. However a 50% reduction of FoW literature publication does not mean that you can condemn the BF staff as “lazy” just because they are not prioritizing their workload on your preferred area, FoW WW2. They may be overall working even harder than ever with diversification of efforts in to Team Yankee, upcoming Vietnam, other venues/periods etc. I know that makes you mad because their hard work is not dedicated entirely to your FoW WW2 interest, but it is no way a justification for characterizing the entire BF staff as being lazy. The claim of laziness simply is not justifiable or appropriate. All it does is bring into question your thought processes. I think you are smarter than that.

Maybe “lazy” just does not translate well from Spanish to English? All I know is that in English you are leveling a false claim based on a fact that only looks at what has happened with regards to BF's WW2 FoW focus while leaving out any consideration for what other projects the BF staff is concentrating their workloads on. You're one fact is not enough to convince any reasonable jury that BF is lazy. It just is not a complete enough picture to level such a slander off of.


Soviet Pride wrote:
I repeat, describing V3 as a game of teleporting TDs, arty parks and slitzkreig is not only partial (its almost a slander) its show a complete lack of knowledge on the matter (no one that still loves and play V3, plays it that way).


I’m sorry Jorge, that may not be a lot of what you see in your gaming circles, but they were constant and common complaints about V3 that precipitated a lot of what has manifested in V4 (BTW creating some of its problems). Go back and search the forums for the complaints/debates on the subjects. They are there. You may have even participated in some. V3 “Sitzkrieg” complaints resulted V4 mission revision taking away defender time-out wins and now causing a higher number of draws. V3 complaints about artillery’s ability to stop tanks resulted in a V4 decrease AT making taking heavy artillery questionable. V3 complaints about TDs resulted in the teleportation rule, even after it was modified under V3, being completely removed in V4, and now people claiming US TDs are not worth it anymore in V4 (I definitely don’t agree with that BTW).

BF did listen to the community’s complaints about these issues and addressed them in V4. This is why I have been saying “watch out what you ask for, you might just might get it.” I understand that “you” were not complaining about those issues, but a lot of vocal people, many of them members of this forum I think, got BF’s attention and caused some changes from V3 to V4 that they may not have fully anticipated.

One other thing, I did not say that any Telporting TDs, Artillery Parks, and Sitzkrieg were my beliefs. Note when I brought these three areas up I stated “teleporting TDs, artillery parks, what some people call "sitzkrieg.” They are just commonly acknowledged issues that people routinely complained about in V3. That though is a nuance that the language issue here would not likely permit to come through. I just want to make it clear to you that when I state those were issues that many people had with V3, I’m not necessarily saying I’m one of them. You not only missed the mark with your “absolute ignorance” comment, you jumped the gun.

Soviet Pride wrote:
If you invoque the «dont be a dick» clause, please dont start with such provocations.


Actually Jorge, my simple stating of what are some commonly perceived V3 issues that received a lot of community attention and grief are not a personal attack on you, unlike when you stated that I had “Absolute ignorance” of V3, despite my tremendous experience with V3 that is likely just as extensive as yours. It’s also unlike you slandering the BF staff as being “Lazy” because the amount of effort that they put into your favorite part of their company has been reduced, possibly due to shifting of their efforts into other areas.

You directly and personally accusing me of being absolutely ignorant is a clear crossing of the “don’t be a dick line.” Your accusing BF of being “lazy” without any applicable proof I think also crosses the line. But I’m not taking either of them personally and I am not taking action because I myself have not away been completely cordial with you. You would have some decent justifications for coming at me for approaching or even crossing the “don’t be a dick” line, but me talking about the commonly known and discussed issues with V3 is clearly not one of them. Not by any stretch.

I just have to assume that much of the friction between us is compounded by language barriers. I hope neither of us is nearly the dick that we must seem to each other. I prefer to believe that we both just want a strong FoW gaming community but see different paths on how to get there….you know that Republican /Democrat, Liberal / Conservative kind of thing where all just want a safe, secure, prosperous nation but just seem can’t to agree on how to get there.

Soviet Pride wrote:

Also, draw sickness must be a problem with V4 because BF is adressing the issue with urgency. This is not an opinion, its a fact.


The fact is that V4 has more draws than V3. True. The extent to which that is a major or minor problem is largely more of an opinion. Quite frankly in the sphere of V4 problems this might be relatively minor issue. It certainly it will be one of the easiest ones for BF to fix.

I have been careful to track, and provide to the community, what has actually been playing out in the V4 tournament world in my region (one of the most prolific for FoW in the US) . I’ve provided the data so that people can make up their own minds rather than only hearing overblown and inaccurate terms like “epidemic” which paint a far worse picture than is what actually happening or fan-boy proclamations on how good/perfect V4 is. So yes, V4 results in draws more frequently than V3. I think my data confirms that, but the level of draws is not nearly as bad as has been feared and claimed. That though is admittedly just my opinion. Just as your “epidemic” is just an opinion. Even if people disagree with me, and they are justified to do so, at least they have some actual data to consider and can make up their own minds with something other than forum hype alone.

Soviet Pride wrote:
Even BF staff is recognising their own mistakes with the V4 rushed launch... hopefully they can ammend things and give the community back a quality product.


Certainly V4 has problems, some bigger than others, but overall it’s still a system that many can and are enjoying. It’s not as good as the fans think, but its also not as bad as the non-fans make it out to be. I’m encouraged that BF wants to try to make fixes, but I think we will have to manage our expectations on how quick and to what degree those amendments can be implemented. I’m sure to some extent V4 will be improved and I’m sure we’ll eventually have a V5 which will have a whole new set of problems for us to debate about. It’s the way of things.

I’m pretty sure it is not a sound expectation that BF will turn back the clock to V3, but it is a sound expectation that some fixes and appeasement by BF of the player base will be attempted in V4. The question I have to wonder about is to what degree will those fixes matter to the disillusioned parts of the FoW community? BF has to be wondering the same.I say that because I worry that the excessive and constant negativity from some very vocal forum “personalities,” might be just be training BF to ignore their legitimate concerns. The folks that have decided “thumbs down” on V4 clearly will not get every fix they want, exactly they way they want it, and certainly not as quick as they want. One thing is certain; this will be interesting to watch as it plays out.

This is why I’m so interested in your reaction to the BF apology/explanation, what ever it was, at the ETC. Is there anything that BF can even do to pull you into V4, or is it just going to be only V3 and complaining about V4 from the sidelines all the way to V5? You might be a good bellwether of the disaffected parts of the FoW community.


Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:03 am
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Actually looking at the data presented in this website... the amount of draws seems even higher than what I expected beforehand... I can understand the urgency of BF to fix this problem.


Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:09 am
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On v4 draws, for games that both players have the same points level, similar armies, and equal experience, I would expect draws to be the norm.

My 6-1 & 5-2 wins tend come from my agressive style of play and vs players not having an army optimized to face mine.

So the number of draws seen in both v4 and TY neither upsets me or is unexpected. I would rather have BF spend its very limited staff time merging the core rules set of v4 and TY than worrying about a non issue such as "too many draws".


Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:20 pm
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The degree to which V4's propensity for draws is problematic is mostly a personal choice, but it is an area that BF can address quickly. Though I agree with you Ed that there's bigger fish to fry in V4, BF needs something they can do in the short term to demonstrate that they are listening and want to improve the game for its players. They need a quick PR win.

The "draw" subject deserves a new thread. And as this thread has wandered so far of-topic, it's time to lock it.


Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:18 pm
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